Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt11.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 1MB

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From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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[e-mail] writes:

>... Her name is Sharula and that is the same name as a star
>in the Scorpius (sometimes called Scorpio) constellation.
                  ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Scoropio is not a constellation; it is an astrological sign.  We
realize you are unable to distinguish between astrology and astronomy
John, as well as your other problem with fantasy V. reality.
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From: [e-mail] (Tracy D. Kilroy)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:
|  President Carter said that he saw a UFO with some other people
|but skeptics say that he saw Venus.   Ronald Regan said that he
|saw a UFO from Air Force One but no one took it seriously because
|Regan often said things that didn't make sense.

 I was informed that Carter asked some government officials for the
records of UFO research to be released but his request came back denied,
and they would not even let him see any documents they had.

Tracy
University of Kentucky
[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>Mabye the Authors of the FAQ could put together a PETITION for all
>interested in this group, possibly others, to send to Pres-elect Clinton.
>What do you all think?

I think a lot of this depends on whether the president is even "in the loop"
so to speak.  If presidents are routinely given what the government knows
about UFOs, then it would take a major briefing session with him, which
probably hasn't occurred yet.  My own guess is that they are only partly
privy to what's going on.  They're given enough disinformation to convice
them that secrecy is essential at all costs.  But it would have to
be information that's consistent between administrations.  But what
happens when the president gets too pushy for hard facts and first-hand
knowledge?


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From: [e-mail] (Dr. Death)
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HUH?
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HUH?
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Harden)
Subject: Re: NASA SETI Efforts
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Steve Gilbert ([e-mail]) writes, in part:
>the NASA SETI initiative that was due to start scanning the sky for
>radio signals from other stars. ... Yesterday, in the current
>edition of 'Science News', I saw an article that implied that the
>program had, in fact, started.  It specifically mentioned that the
>Arecibo radio telescope and the VLA were involved.
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^
The above cited article appears in SCIENCE NEWS, November 17, 1992,
Vol. 142, No. 19, page 317 entitled *Is there anybody out there?*
The article specifically mentions Arecibo, and to a lesser extent
Parkes Radio Telescope in Australia.  IT DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY
MENTION THE VLA ... and for good reason: the VLA is not engaged in
SETI research, nor involved with the NASA SETI effort in any way.

The VLA (Very Large Array) radio telescope is a National Radio
Astronomy Observatory facility located near Socorro, New Mexico.
It consists of 27 88-ft. diameter dish antennas forming a wye (Y)
configuration.  Each leg of the wye is about 12-mi. long.  We are
currently in the A-configuration, meaning we are employing the full
12-mile lengths of the arms, yielding a field of view of a few
tenths of an arcsecond.  This extremely narrow field of view,
combined with the nature of the electronics and data processing
techniques, makes the VLA unsuitable for a general sky survey.

Scientists and astronomers from around the world submit proposals
to use the VLA instrument, and observing time is granted based
on the merit of the proposal. SETI requests are considered with
the same scrutiny as anyother experiment proposal.  There have
been very few proposals for SETI work over the past 10 years, due
primarily to the unsuitability of the VLA for this type of work.

Paul Harden ([e-mail])
National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Socorro, New Mexico 87801







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From: [e-mail] (Gregory Nouch)
Subject: UFO's
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:54:05 GMT
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Here it is loud and clear! I won't go wandering around the subject i'll stick
to it and get straight to the point. I think 99% of what you guys supspect to
think are aliens are false alarms or a hoax created by someone to get a quick
laugh. There's so many possibilities on what they could be. I think most of
the reports on UFO's being sighted are most lickley "Top Secret" aircraft
tests from the gouverment. If you look at it most of the sightings are all in
1 area. I mean people think aliens are stalking the area, there's also a
possibility that there's one guy in the area that made a habit of hoaxing
people. I'm not narrow minded or anything, I have my 100% beleifs that were
not the only place in the galaxy with living organisms on it. I just think we
as humans need more proof then we already have.



I just want to make one thing clear. I'm not saying that there is no E.T's
visiting our planet. I'm just saying in my own humble opinion that it's
unlickly.

I know some people in this area will get a little jumpy over what I said I
just wanted to express my own opinion.





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Subject: Re: Space Craft From Other Plants
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Dear People: I am surprised that a person made the observation about
us giving contellations and planets names. Kelvin Rowe says his
space friends don't refer to planets by names but by their orbit.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
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Subject: Re: Pee Wee's Pyramid
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Dear Pyramid Folks: Remember these conventional scientist aren't
planning to leave till May of 1993.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Crocker)
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Subject: Re: JFK and BUSH
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Had a copy of the following article on my disk and thought it
would be relevant.

-Steve

<begin repost>

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1991 20:15:34 CDT
Reply-To:     Rich Winkel <[e-mail]>
Sender:       Activists Mailing List <[e-mail]>
From:         Rich Winkel <[e-mail]>
Subject:      George Bush and the Kennedy Murder


The following article was written by Paul Kangas for the Realist.

The Kennedy Assassination
The Nixon-Bush Connection?
By Paul Kangas

A newly discovered FBI document reveals that George Bush was
directly involved in the 1963 murder of President John Kennedy. The
document places Bush working with the now-famous CIA agent, Felix
Rodriguez, recruiting right-wing Cuban exiles for the invasion of
Cuba. It was Bush's CIA job to organize the Cuban community in
Miami for the invasion. The Cubans were trained as marksmen by the
CIA. Bush at that time lived in Texas. Hopping from Houston to Miami
weekly, Bush spent 1960 and '61 recruiting Cubans in Miami for the
invasion. That is how he met Felix Rodriguez.
You may remember Rodriguez as the _Iran-contra_ CIA agent
who received the first phone call telling the world the CIA plane
flown by Gene Hasenfus had crashed in Nicaragua. As soon as
Rodriguez heard that the plane crashed, he called his long-time CIA
supervisor, George Bush. Bush denied being in the _contra_ loop, but
investigators recently obtained copies of Oliver North's diary, which
documents Bush's role as a CIA supervisor of the _contra_ supply
network.
In 1988 Bush told Congress he knew nothing about the illegal
supply flights until 1987, yet North's diary shows Bush at the first
planning meeting Aug. 6, 1985. Bush's "official" log placed him
somewhere else. Such double sets of logs are intended to hide Bush's
real role in the CIA; to provide him with "plausible deniability." The
problem is, it fell apart because too many people, like North and
Rodriguez, have kept records that show Bush's CIA role back to the
1961 invasion of Cuba. (_Source: The Washington Post, 7/10/90_).
That is exactly how evidence was uncovered placing George
Bush working with Felix Rodriguez when JFK was killed. A memo
from FBI head J. Edgar Hoover was found, stating that, "Mr. George
Bush of the CIA had been briefed on November 23rd, 1963 about the
reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination
of President Kennedy. (_Source: The Nation, 8/13/88_).
On the day of the assassination Bush was in Texas, but he
denies knowing exactly where he was. Since he had been the
supervisor for the secret Cuban teams, headed by former Cuban
police commander Felix Rodriguez, since 1960, it is likely Bush was
also in Dallas in 1963. Several of the Cubans he was supervising as
dirty-tricks teams for Nixon, were photographed in the Zagruder
film.
In 1959 Rodriguez was a top cop in the Cuban government under
Batista. When Batista was overthrown and fled to Miami, Rodriguez
went with him, along with Frank Sturgis and Rafael Quintero.
Officially, Rodriguez didn't join the CIA until 1967, after the CIA
invasion of Cuba, in which he participated, and the assassination of
JFK. But records recently uncovered show he actually joined the CIA
in 1961 for the invasion of Cuba when he was recruited by George
Bush. That is how Rodriguez claims he became a "close personal
friend of Bush."
Then "officially" Rodriguez claims he quit the CIA in 1976,
just after he was sent to prison for his role in the Watergate
burglary. However, according to _Rolling Stone_ reporters Kohn &
Monks (11/3/88), Rodriguez still goes to CIA headquarters monthly
to receive assignments and have his blue 1987 bulletproof Cadillac
serviced. Rodriguez was asked by a _Rolling Stone_ reporter where
he was the day JFK was shot, and claims he can't remember.
George Bush claims he never worked for the CIA until he was
appointed director by former Warren Commission director and then
President Jerry Ford, in 1976. Logic suggests that is highly unlikely.
Of course, Bush has a company duty to deny being in the CIA. The CIA
is a secret organization. No one ever admits to being a member. The
truth is that Bush has been a top CIA official since before the 1961
invasion of Cuba, working with Felix Rodriguez. Bush may deny his
actual role in the CIA in 1959, but there are records in the files of
Rodriguez and others involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba
that expose Bush's role. The corporations would not put somebody in
charge of all the state secrets held by the CIA unless he was
experienced and well trained in the CIA. (_Source: Project Censored
Report, Feb 1989, Dr Carl Jensen, Sonoma State College_).
Recently I interviewed former CIA liaison officer L. Fletcher
Prouty. He is a consultant for the excellent new movie on how the
CIA killed JFK, being made by Oliver Stone. He told me that one of
the projects he did for the CIA was in 1961 to deliver US Navy ships
from a Navy ship yard to the CIA agents in Guatemala planning the
invasion of Cuba. He said he delivered three ships to a CIA agent
named George Bush, who had the 3 ships painted to look like they
were civilian ships. That CIA agent then named the 3 ships after: his
wife, his home town and his oil company. He named the ships:
Barbara, Houston & Zapata. Any book on the history of the Bay of Pigs
will prove the names of those 3 ships. Again, this is more finger
prints of George Bush's involvement in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Yet
Bush denies his role in this great adventure. Why would Bush be so
shy about his role in this war? What is the secret? Is there
something dirty about this war that Bush & Nixon don't want the
public to know about?
Answer: Yes there is. The same people involved in the Bay of
Pigs were the people involved in the Watergate burglary. Why was
the Watergate burgalarized [sic]? The CIA was trying to plug up a
possible news leak. They were trying to stop the Democrats from
publishing the photos of Hunt & Sturgis under arrest for the murder
of JFK. May 7, 1977, SF Chronicle.
Presently, there is a law suit attempting to force the
government to release the records about the Bay of Pigs invasion.
Why are those documents still secret? Why are they locked in the
National Archives along with all the photos from [the] Dallas
assassination of JFK? Why are the 4000 hours of Watergate tapes in
which Nixon is babbling about the mysterious connections between
the Bay of Pigs, Dallas and Watergate also being sealed in the
National Archives? Is it because all three incidents are connected?
Yes. We must demand the secret files on these 3 cases be released
now. For a copy of the petition to release the files, please write to:
Paul Kangas, private investigator, POB 422644, SF, Ca 94142.
Thanks to Oliver Stone's blockbuster new movie on JFK there is
now sufficient national movement to reopen all these cases. The
White House fears Stone's new movie so much that they have hired
more CIA journalists to slander the movie & Stone. Don't fall for it.
Every serious investigator now agrees that Oswald did not
shoot JFK. That James Earl Ray did not shoot Dr. Martin Luther King
and that Sirhan Sirhan did not shoot Robert Kennedy. These cases
must be reopened so that Sirhan and Ray can be set free. The only bar
that keeps Sirhan in prison is the tremendous anti-arab racism in
Americans: in both blacks & whites.
According to a biography of Richard Nixon, his close personal
and political ties with the Bush family go back to 1941 when Nixon
claims he read an ad in an L A. newspaper, placed by a wealthy group
of businessmen, led by Preston Bush, the father of George Bush. They
wanted a young, malleable candidate to run for Congress. Nixon
applied for the position and won the job. Nixon became a mouthpiece
for the Bush group. (_Source: Freedom Magazine, 1986, L.F. Prouty_).
In fact, Preston Bush is credited with creating the winning ticket of
Eisenhower-Nixon in 1952.(_Source: George Bush, F. Green,
Hipocrene, 1988_).
Newly discovered FBI documents prove that Jack Ruby has been
an employee of Richard Nixon since 1947. That that [sic] FBI
document Ruby is listed as working as a spy & hit man for Nixon. On
Nov. 22, 63 Ruby was seen by a women who knew him well, Julian
Ann Mercer, approximately an hour before the arrival of JFK's
motorcade, unloading a man carrying a rifle in a case at the Grassy
Knoll from his car. Ruby later was seen on national TV killing a
witness who could link Nixon & Bush to the killing of JFK: Oswald.
_On the Trail of the Assassins_, Garrison, p xiii.
Richard Nixon was Vice President from 1952 until 1960. In
fact. Nixon was given credit for planning _Operation 40_, the secret
1961 invasion of Cuba, during his 1959 campaign for President After
Batista was kicked out by the starving people of Cuba, and Fidel
Castro came to power, Castro began telling American corporations
they would have to pay Cuban employees decent wages. Even worse,
Pepsi Cola was told it would now have to pay world market prices
for Cuban sugar.
Pepsi, Ford Motor Co., Standard Oil and the Mafia drug dealers
decided Fidel had to be removed since his policies of requiring
corporations to pay market wages was hurting their profits. So the
corporations asked then Vice-President Nixon to remove Fidel. Nixon
promised he would, just as soon as he'd won the 1960 elections
against some underdog, an unknown Democrat named John Kennedy. It
would be an easy victory for Nixon. The polls had Nixon winning by a
landslide. Besides, Kennedy was a Catholic, and Americans would no
more elect a Catholic President than they would elect a woman, a
black or a Jew. This was 1959.
Nixon told Pepsi, Standard Oil and other corporations who lost
property given back to the farmers of Cuba, that if they would help
him win, he would authorize an invasion to remove Castro. To further
impress contributors to his campaign, then Vice-President Nixon
asked the CIA to create _Operation 40_, a secret plan to invade
Cuba, just as soon as he won.
The CIA pul Texas millionaire and CIA agent George Bush in
charge of recruiting Cuban exiles into the CIA's invasion army. Bush
was working with another Texas oilman, Jack Crichton, to help him
with the invasion. A fellow Texan, Air Force General Charles Cabel,
was asked to coordinate the air cover for the invasion.
Most of the CIA leadership around the invasion of Cuba seems
to have been people from Texas. A whole Texan branch of the CIA is
based in the oil business. If we trace Bush's background in the Texas
oil business we discover his two partners in the oil-barge leasing
business: Texan Robert Mosbacher and Texan James Baker. Mosbacher
is now Secretary of Commerce and Baker is Secretary of State, the
same job Dulles held when JFK was killed. (Source: _Common Cause
magazine_, 3-4/90).
On the Watergate tapes, June 23, 1972, referred to in the
media as the "smoking gun" conversation, Nixon and his Chief of
Staff, H.R. Haldeman, discussed how to stop the FBI investigation
into the CIA Watergate burglary. They were worried that the
investigation would expose their conection to "the Bay of Pigs
thing." Haldeman, in his book _The Ends of Power_, reveals that
Nixon always used code words when talking about the 1963 murder
of JFK. Haldeman said Nixon would always refer to the assassination
as "the Bay of Pigs."
On that transcript we find Nixon discussing the role of George
Bush's partner, Robert Mosbacher, as one of the Texas fundraisers
for Nixon. On the tapes Nixon keeps refering to the "Cubans" and the
"Texans." The "Texans" were Bush, Mosbacher and Baker. This is
another direct link between Bush and evidence linking Nixon and Bush
to the Kennedy assassination.
In the same discussion Nixon links "the Cubans," "the Texans,"
"Helms," "Hunt," "Bernard Barker," Robert "Mosbacher" and "the Bay of
Pigs." Over and over on the Watergate tapes, these names come up
around the discussion of the photos from Dallas that Nixon was
trying to obtain when he ordered the CIA to burglarize the
Watergate. (_Source: Three Men and a Barge", Teresa Riordan,
Common Cause magazine, March/April 1990, and San Francisco
Chronicle, May 7,1977, interview with Frank Sturgis in which he
stated that "the reason we burglarized the Watergate was because
Nixon was interested in stopping news leaking related to the photos
of our role in the assassination of President John Kennedy."_)
After Nixon's landslide victory in 1972, he knew he had to
centralize all power into the White House to keep his faction in
power, not only to hold power, but to prevent the media from digging
into how he secretly shot his way into the White House, just like
Hitler shot his way into control of Germany. The first thing Nixon did
was to demand signed resignations of his entire government.
"Eliminate everyone," he told John Ehrlichman about reappointment,
"except George Bush. Bush will do anything for our cause." (Source:
_Pledging Allegiance_, Sidney Blumenthal.)
The reason why Bush will 'do anything" is because his hands
have as much of Kennedy's blood on them as do Nixon's, Hunt's,
Sturgis's, Felix Rodriguez's and Gerald Ford's. This White House gang
fears that if the public ever realizes how they shot their wav into
power it could set off a spark that would destroy their fragile fraud
and land them in jail.
Other famous Watergate members of the CIA invasion that
Bush recruited were Frank Sturgis, E. Howard Hunt, Bernard Barker
and Rafael Quintero. Quintero has said publicly that if he ever told
what he knew about Dallas and the Bay of Pigs, "It would be the
biggest scandal ever to rock the nation."
Meanwhile, in 1960, Preston Bush was running Nixon's
campaign. Nixon was sent to South Vietnam to assure the French-
connection government there that if France pulled out, the U.S. would
step in to protect the drug trade from the GoIden Triangle. (_Source:
Fronrtline, 1988, "Guns. Drugs and the CIA"; Alexander Cockburn.
"Cocaine, the CIA and Air America," S.F. Examiner, Feb. 2, '91; The
Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, Alfred McCoy, 1972._)
In 1959, Vice President Nixon was flying all over the world,
acting just like presidential material. It was an easy race for Nixon.
Congressman Jerry Ford was doing a great job fundraising for Nixon,
as was George Bush. The rich loved Nixon. The media picked up every
bone Nixon tossed out to them. The biggest problem was that Nixon
was afraid to speak openly of his plan to invade Cuba. The plan was a
secret. No sense in alerting Cuba to the coming invasion. But Kennedy
was taking a harder line on Cuba than Nixon, because Kennedy was
not aware of the corporate/CIA planned invasion.
Nixon lost the 1960 race by the smallest margin in history. At
first Bush, Nixon, Cabel and Hunt decided to just go ahead with the
invasion, without informing President Kennedy. Then, at the last
second, at 4 a.m., just two hours before the invasion was set to go,
General Cabel called JFK and asked for permission to provide U.S. air
cover for the CIA invasion. Kennedy said no.
The CIA was furious with JFK but decided to go ahead with
their private invasion anyway. Due to poor intelligence, the CIA
landed at the worst possible beach. A swamp. The invasion failed.
The CIA lost 15 of its best men, killed, with another 1100 in Cuban
prisons. It was the worst single blow the CIA ever suffered.
(_Source: F. Howard Hunt, Give Us This Day._)
Bush, Nixon and Hunt blamed Cabel for asking Kennedy and
blamed Kennedy for saying no. They were livid with anger. Nixon's
corporate sponsors ordered JFK to make any deal necessary to
recover the 1100 CIA agents imprisoned in Cuba. JFK did. Once the
CIA had its well-trained Cubans back, they decided to continue the
invasion of Cuba just as soon as they could get rid of that S.O.B.
Kennedy.
The 1964 election was fast approaching. Nixon was running
against Kennedy again. Bush, Ford and Nixon knew that they had to
get rid of JFK now, or else the Kennedy clan, with Robert and Ted in
the wings, could control the White House until 1984. They decided
not to wait until '84 to get back in the White House. The Cuban teams
of "shooters" began following Kennedy from city to city looking for a
window of opportunity to shoot from. They came close in Chicago,
but couldn't get the cooperation of Mayor Daley.
But in Dallas they had an ace. The mayor was the brother of
General Cabel, whom the CIA blamed for the failure of the invasion.
The general prevailed on his brother, Earl, and the motorcade was
changed to pass the grassy knoll at 7 m.p.h. Hunt and Sturgis shot
JFK from the grassy knoll. They were arrested, photographed and
seen by 15 witnesses. But the media turned a blind eye to the photos,
and for 25 years the world has been searching for the truth.
On the day JFK was murdered, Nixon, Hunt and some of the
Watergate crew were photographed in Dallas, as were a group of
Cubans, one holding an umbrella up, like a signal, next to the
President's limo just as Kennedy was shot. The Cubans can be seen
holding up the signal umbrella in the Zapruder film and dozens of
stills taken during the assassination. After the murder they can be
seen calmly walking away.
Nixon denied he was in Dallas that day, but new photos and
stories prove he was there. Nixon claimed to the FBI he couldn't
remember where he was when JFK was killed. (_Source: FBI memo,
Feb. 23, 1964, published in Coup d'etat in America, Weberman &
Canfield_). Bush, too, claims he can't remember where he was. Jack
Anderson did a TV special in 1988 proving beyond any shadow of
doubt that two of the tramps arrested in Dallas behind the grassy
knoll were Hunt and Sturgis.
After the murder, former Vice President Nixon asked President
Lyndon Johnson to appoint Nixon's friend, former FBI agent Jerry
Ford, to run the Warren Commission. Nixon also asked LBJ to appoint
Nixon's long-time supporter, Judge Earl Warren, to head the
Commission. LBJ agreed. Ford interviewed all the witnesses and
decided which ones would be heard and which ones eliminated.
It is no coincidence that Nixon selected Ford as his Vice
President after Spiro Agnew was ousted. When Nixon himself got
busted in the Watergate scandal, Earl Warren offered to set up
another special commission if it would help get him out of trouble
again. Ford, of course, pardoned Nixon for the Watergate burglary but
Nixon is still not out of the woods. There are 4000 hours of
Watergate tape. On the June 23, 1972, discussions with John
Ehrlichman and Haldeman there is clear evidence that Nixon is openly
"confessing" to hiring Hunt to kill JFK. That is why the Watergate
"investigation" went into secret session after Congress heard some
of the tapes. This is why only 12 hours of 4000 hours have been
released to the public.
Did Congress realize that Nixon and Bush had openly discussed
killing JFK for stopping the air cover for the Bay of Pigs invasion of
Cuba? Remember, Nixon taped virtually every discussion he had with
anyone in his inner circle, including Bush, in order to blackmail
people later. There is a photo of Bush reporting to Nixon in the White
House in 1968. It will be interesting to see what they were talking
about on that day, when the full 4000 hours are finally released. The
key to unlocking the secrets behind the 1963 murder of JFK is hidden
in the 3988 hours of unreleased White House tapes.
Bush was in Dallas the day Reagan was shot. (_Source: George
Bush, F. Green, 1988._) That must have given Bush a flashback to
November 22,1963.


Paul Kangas is a private investigator in California. This article
is reprinted from _The Realist_ with permission.

<end repost>

-STeve
Xref: icaen alt.postmodern:4165 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:2284 alt.alien.visitors:11010
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: ALTERNATIVE Comet Rendezvous Mission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.religion.kibology,misc.test,alt.sex
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:58:37 GMT
Lines: 66

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>               The Russians have spacecraft called "COSMOSPHERES",
>          which were originally built and used for "Star Wars" defense.
>          They are spherical in shape,

Gee, mom, the Russians have invented balloons.  I'm scared.

>          with "Psycho-energetic Range Finding" (PRF) which tunes-in to
>          the actual atomic signature of an object or target.

I hear that banks like to have atomic signatures on checks--it's so hard
to forge handwriting that small.

>               The 3rd-generation JUMBO Cosmospheres occupy more volume
>          than the Hindenburg blimp,

The Hindenburg was not a blimp.  The Goodyear Columbia is a blimp.  The
Hindenburg was a Zeppelin.

My sofa occupies more volume than the Hindenburg, mainly because the
Hindenburg was destroyed.

>                                          [Many of them are armed with
>          charged-particle beam weapons, neutron beam weapons, and/or
>          microwave brain-scrambling equipment!]

Yes, I see you've actually witnessed the effects of these first-hand.
Poor guy.  Now you're doomed to posting and reposting and reposting and
reposting the same fucking halfwit articles over and over to random
groups like alt.postmodern.  Wise up, pal.  You can't get away with
posting tepid babble to random groups unless your name ends in "ibo" or
begins with "Matt".

>               The 3rd-generation JUMBO COSMOSPHERES were first
>          deployed in April 1981, in parallel with the first U.S. Space
>          Shuttle Mission.  They significantly INTERFERED with that
>          mission, in ways which were successfully COVERED-UP by NASA
>          using techniques similar to those shown in the movie
>          "Capricorn I".

Next you're going to tell me that "Total Recall" was real, too.

>               Dr. Beter predicted what he called the "RETIREMENT" of
>          Leonid Brezhnev ONE WEEK BEFORE Brezhnev "died".  [Note that
>          the word "retirement" was used for the TERMINATION OF
>          REPLICANTS in the 1982 movie "Blade Runner".]

Okay, I got the name of the Phil Dick work wrong.  But *next* you're
going to tell me that "The Hitch-Hiker's Guide The The Galaxy" is real.

>               The paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to
>          confused meteorologists about how lightning is generated in
>          clouds.

Uh, I hate to tell you this, but they figured this out quite long ago,
and they're quite happy with the normal, scientific explanation.

>               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
>          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED and I like to eat WORMS.

Seriously, either (a) get some new material instead of reposting it
every couple of weeks, or (b) try to decide what groups to post to,
okay?

                            -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12685 alt.alien.visitors:11011 sci.skeptic:34067
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:56:07 GMT
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: I am surprised that a person made the observation about
>us giving contellations and planets names. Kelvin Rowe says his
>space friends don't refer to planets by names but by their orbit.

But how do they refer to the orbits--by name?

                                -- K.

Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:34069 alt.paranormal:5993 alt.alien.visitors:11012
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Vader)
Subject: Re: Jeane Dixon Predicts Bush Victory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: pv@gagme
Lines: 9
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Inline Software Creations
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:31:39 GMT

Rolf Manne writes:
>I read somewhere about a proposed astrological service for determining
>the sex of unborn children: You send me 50 dollars and some pertinent
>information about the time of conception, etc. and I will tell you the sex
>of the child. If I am wrong you get your money back.
If they offer double your money back, go for it. PV
--
Paul Vader            systems analyst, rollerblader, hell's cavenewt,
[e-mail]    FOAF, vindicated liberal democrat
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From: [e-mail] (Nick Molinari)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:02:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
write
>s:
>>Wake up everybody! This is the real world...there are no UFOs or Big Foot or
>>any other screwed up anomaly like those. What is the use of a newsgroup like
>>this anyway. Ok, so it has success (judging from the number of people
posting),
>
>>but that only shows that there are a lot of crazy people out there.
>>
>>E.T. (HaHaHa)
>
Seems to me people just wanna know what we're doing on this big rock and how
we got here.....
Some turn to religion,some to science,some to their inner selves....
I tend to think it's a combination of the three....
Or maybe it was just a chance roll of the cosmic dice and we're here for no
reason....
Sure there crazy people but ya have to sift through alot of sand to get a few
gold nuggets.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now maybe you'll keep your stinkiness to yourself....
R.H.
I've had it up to here with the likes of you people....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Carole Fretts)
Subject: Re: From: nmt@NSA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:33:49 GMT
Lines: 6


>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Lestat de Lioncourt) writes...

Are you the *real* Lestat de Lioncourt, the love of my life? ;^)

Carole
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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: VCR Alert
Date: 13 Nov 1992 14:40:39 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Tonight on Sightings is an episode on Crop Circles.  Looks like we'll
get to see what our old friend Colin Andrews has been up to lately!

David
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12691 alt.alien.visitors:11016 sci.skeptic:34082
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 06:21:39 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <roelle.721602222@uars_mag>
Lines: 7

Dear People: You flamers are really sharp. My compliments to you for
keeping me on the straight and narrow. I did some material last night
about the use of Vertual Reality with our space ships we are sending to
other planets. I had dream last night that warned me not to insult or
talk about anything or anybody or they would sue me so from now on out
I'm going to be a good boy.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pee Wee's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 06:26:35 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: It seems like the flames are getting worse. Maybe I had
better slack off a little bit. From now on out I'm going to be a good
boy.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 06:29:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Big Foot Lovers: I believe I have said all I care to about
Big Foot so if you will please take this selection away.
John Winston
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:34084 alt.paranormal:5994 alt.alien.visitors:11019
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From: bd@[e-mail] (Brice Dowaliby)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Innumeracy (Was: Re: Jeane Dixon Predicts Bush Victory)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 92 13:18:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: bd@[e-mail] (Brice Dowaliby)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Fluent Inc., Lebanon NH
Lines: 20
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:49:52 GMT

[e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:

>I heard an education expert interviewed on public radio a while back.
>She was a proponent of outcome based educate (OBE).  She talked about
>the high rate of illiteracy and innumeracy in graduates of the the
>present educational system.  She then stated that with new methods
>like OBE, and hard work, and commitment from parents "everybody could
>be above average."  She wasn't ripping off Garrison Kiellor's joke
>either, she was dead serious.

Was that illiteracy, innumeracy, or just sloppy speech?  Since
it's obvious (to me, at least) that she meant everyone could be
above the current average, what's the big deal?
          ^^^^^^^

--
   Brice Dowaliby, Fluent Inc., 10 Cavendish Court, Lebanon, NH  03766
                         [e-mail]
             I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me
                              DoD # 0698
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: Re^2: alien info.wanted
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:30:19 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>>Is it a ufology requirement that one know nothing of elementary
>astronomy?
>
>Is it an astronomy requirement that one be a pompous ass?
>
>Rod
>
>--
>Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
>[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
>                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Rod,

If Jeff was being a PA, I am sure this message would qualify you. I really don't
think injecting a little reality into this group qualifies one as a PA.


Gregg "The REAL Pompous Ass Guy" Brown
(Just ask Don or Jeff P.!)



--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
        812-442-5354 (10am - 5pm EST) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 16:58:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tracy D. Kilroy) writes...
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:
>|  President Carter said that he saw a UFO with some other people
>|but skeptics say that he saw Venus.   Ronald Regan said that he
>|saw a UFO from Air Force One but no one took it seriously because
>|Regan often said things that didn't make sense.
>
> I was informed that Carter asked some government officials for the
>records of UFO research to be released but his request came back denied,
>and they would not even let him see any documents they had.
>
>Tracy
>University of Kentucky
>[e-mail]
>
>
>
======================================================================
Tracy,
  Remember too that President Carter also severly whacked that vicious
swimming attack rabbit with a paddle before it could possibly take a
bite out of a boat and hurt anyone.
                            Jim 8-)[
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Re^2: alien info.wanted
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:18:48 GMT
Lines: 34

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith):
>
>>Is it a ufology requirement that one know nothing of elementary
> astronomy?
>
> Is it an astronomy requirement that one be a pompous ass?
>
> Rod
>
> --
> Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
> [e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
>                  |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  Whoa! That's a little harsh Rod! Maybe it is you who deserves the
  title you so lightly place. That person was right on the button.
  SO many of the references to constellations, and other astronomical
  quantities in this group are TOTALLY BOGUS. It is important that
  it be made clear. If someone says something utterly and obviously
  wrong like 'Alpha Centauri, on the other side of the Galaxy',
  they should be ROASTED. I am sick of all this 'from the constellation
  XYZ' baloney. It was recently stated that constellations are simply
  2D projections of stars in 3D space which are not necessarily near
  to each other AT ALL. Saying a group of aliens is from some given
  constellation is exactly equivalent to saying that they are from
  'this arm of the galaxy', NOTHING MORE.  I posted once that is was
  one thing to assert some theory based on experience or even opinion,
  but TOTALLY another thing to butt heads with plain, proven facts.
  Please let those of us who have a little real, scientific, fact-based
  info, share that with the group.

  The Earth is not flat, nor is it hollow.
-Max
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:19892 alt.alien.visitors:11023 alt.conspiracy.jfk:3818
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy.jfk
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From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: JFK and BUSH
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:52:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 13


That was a great article... but:  what is it doing posted in
ALT.ALIEN.VISITORS ???
    ^^^^^

(ahem)

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
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From: nmt@N
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: From: nmt@NSA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:40:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AM Development
Lines: 3


     Oui, mademoiselle, c'est moi.  Comment-allez vous?  Je veux de vous
revoir, ma belle fleur.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Wake up to reality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:02:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 28

To: [e-mail]
From: hombas![e-mail]

ST|Wake up everybody! This is the real world...there are no UFOs...
  `----------------------------------------------------------------

                             .---------------------.
                            /        .---.          \
                           ( O O O O |   | O O O O O )
                            \        |   |          /
                             `---------------------'
  **__    I'm sure glad you    /     |---|       \
 **  00   don't exist.        /___   |---|        \
 *(   >                       (\ /)  `---'  ___
 *   o                         \=/         (\ /)
  ; _'                        .----.   =='  \-/
.-'`-.                   =='// \  /||    \\.----.
| | ||                          || ||       \  /\\
| | ||                         /__\          ||  ||
| | ||                         ||||         /__\
`-```'                         ||||         ||||
  | |                         .-..-.        ||||
  | |                                      .-..-.
  | |
  | `-.   Curtesy InfoNet London Ontario [phone]
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:40:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 77

To: [e-mail] (Mr G S Sutherland)
From: hombas![e-mail]

MGSS|No idea, but did you know that President Carter actually promised to
    |tell the world the truth on the UFO sitings whilst campaigning for
    |the White House. He is reputed to have had an excellent sighting of
    |one that prompted him to take this position....
    `-------------------------------------------------------------------

     I found the following four files posted on InfoNet (London)

     --------------------------------------------------------

                    President Jimmy Carter sees UFO

  FROM: CUFON UFO INFO SERVICE
SOURCE: FLEETWOOD, PA  ( AP )
  DATE: SEPTEMBER 18, 1973

A dispatch from Statesboro, GA quoted Governor Jimmy Carter on UFO's  "I've
seen one myself." Mr. Carter said: he saw the shining, saucer-shaped object
before he became governor.

He did not specify the date or place, but noted that he had been with friends
after a business dinner.  The dispatch said: there have been a number of UFO
sightings in the South recently but did not specify how many of them had been
after business dinners.

   ------------------------------------------------------------

           JIMMY CARTER PRIVATE UFO PROJECT

In 1969 Jimmy Carter saw a UFO the size of the moon and  changing
colors.  The  sighting  led Carter to claim that  he  would  make
information  about UFOs public if he became president.  He  tried
and  was stopped by a stubborn bureaucracy.

  --------------------------------------------------------------

        President Carter Asked Space Agency to Investigate UFO's

  FROM: CUFON UFO INFO SERVICE
SOURCE: WASHINGTON D.C.  ( AP )
  DATE: NOVEMBER 27, 1977

President Carter had asked NASA to establish a panel of inquiry to investigate
UFO's.  Dave Williamsom, NASA's assistant for special projects, answered on
friday that NASA was "not anxious" to get into the controversy because"it's not
wise to do research on something that is not a measurable phenomenon.

There is no measurable UFO evidence such as a piece of metal, flesh or cloth.
We don't even have any radio signals. A photograph is not a measurement. But he
added that a group of technical experts he headed would recommend by the end of
the year what NASA's response should be to the white house request.


  --------------------------------------------------------------------

      NASA REFUSES TO INVESTIGATE UFOS AT PRESIDENT CARTERS REQUEST

  FROM: CUDON UFO INFO SERVICE
SOURCE: WASHINGTON D.C.  ( AP )
  DATE: DECEMBER 28, 1977

NASA administrator Robert Frosch, in a letter last week to Pres. Carter's
science advisor Dr. Frank Press, rejected a White House request to investi-gate
UFO's saying that such an inquiry would be "wasteful and probably
unproductive."

Dr. Press said: he accepted NASA's conclusions and did not plan to pursue the
matter further.  NASA said: that it stood ready to analyze any "bona fide
physical evidence from credible sources," but such evidence has never been
found.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras auras everywhere
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 17:47:20 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Dear Aura Observers: The ability to read the aura for past lives is
called giving a person a life reading.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 03:21:36 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>Well I imagine that Henry Winkler has something to say about all of this.
>He is the one whom produces quite a few of the UFO related "Sightings"
>shows ,I think.
>I might be wrong about the show, it could have been the periodical
>"Mysteries of the Unknown", that feature quite a bit of UFO information. At
>any rate, I think that he has a vested intrest in this phenomena.
>
>Mabye the Authors of the FAQ could put together a PETITION for all
>interested in this group, possibly others, to send to Pres-elect Clinton.
>What do you all think?
>

I really think that SOMEBODY needs to publicly put this question to the
President, perhaps in front of cameras at a press conference (Clinton).

The best person to be spokesman would be a press personality.
Rod's suggestion is very good, and I had forgotten that the Fonz is a UFO
nut like us...
So short of getting Dan Rather to ask the Prez for us, maybe the best idea
is to try and contact HW. Anyone have an idea of how to contact someone
that is used to privacy in a big way? Maybe we could send a letter to
him via his agent or manager, or production company?

Jeff-



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From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:22:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 56

My guess is that with such an endeavor one must utilize a lot of finesse.
Particularly in light of the fact that such a 'topic' can be so 'easily'
dismissed as flim-flam.

Further, it might be even more difficult when the party first goes into
office.  They're going to be clamoring over a lot of things... but this
all depends on Clinton and Gore's open-mindedness (so far, I've been
pretty impressed).

Indeed, I have heard of no mention of this topic during his campaign, but
then again this isn't (unfortunately) quite the topic to bring up in
front of the Republicans who, in their desperation to win, would have
really shot the poison arrow.  But with everything that has been going
on in the world, I would find it hard to believe that the topic hasn't
run across either of the families at one point or another.

The other thing I was thinking about was about the purported 'secret-
government' (or whatever you wish to call it).  If it was they who
were responsible for Kennedy (I highly suspect this), and other
atrocities, what can you do?  I've read many accusations of such an
underground organization, and I'll admit some of it sounds a bit off-
the-wall, but considering everything that goes on in the world, I wouldn't
be the least be surprised.  The point here being if they don't want
this information out (yet) then I would probably suspect they would
do everything within their ability to prevent it.  Any thoughts?

To approach the President on such a matter seems to be quite a challenge.
For you not only need to prepare a _substantiative_ case/presentation, but
you have to (I think) go through hell to get a meeting with him.  Perhaps
we can get someone in politics to do this (like a Senator, or whomever).
The more back-up you have, socially and politically, the better off I think
such a move will be.  Someone mentioned a protest/march that might be
occurring next July 4th outside of the White House (or somewhere) which
is about UFOs and revealing the truth... anyone hear of this?

The enigma surrounding this alien presence is incredible... yet in some
ways it appears to be rather sick.  They are taking fetuses, performing
strange tests (Mindscan, pain endurance, etc.) without consent or
even the least be of an explanation.  I find that appalling.  I don't
care what their purpose is, or where they come from.  To get the truth
revealed about this topic will definately be highly significant.  Even
so, if we find out, and we _don't_ like or want what they offer, are
we then merciless to the technology?  Even IF they are the 'missing link'
and we were genetically altered (whenever), does that give them the right
to do what they please?  Apparently _they_ think so... as they tell us
"We have the right."  "We must do this."  ... etc.

Forrest


--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: The Philadelphia Experiment
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 21:37:46 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Mojica) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Chris Mojica)
>Subject: Re: The Philadelphia Experiment
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 03:20:59 GMT

>[e-mail] (David R. Stepien) writes:


>>For a long time I've heard all kinds of wild stories about the
>>Philadelphia Experiment.  Does anyone know the truth?

>>What exactly was the experiment?
>>What were the results?
>>What are the possible interpretations of these results?

>>Answers anyone?


>Well David go checkout the book

> The Philadelphia Experiment, Project Invisibility:
> By  William L. Moore

>I found this book to be very informative on the subject.

>Chris


YES! If you are interested in The Philadelphia Experiment, this book is
really informative.
There is also a film about the subject, but this shouldn't be
taken serious. By the way: have anyone heard anything further. Are
there still people doing scientific work on this subject?

























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From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: JFK and BUSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 92 22:22:05 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Masud Khan) writes:
>Xref: hsr.no alt.alien.visitors:10195 alt.conspiracy:16486
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
>Path: hsr.no!alf.uib.no!aun.uninett.no!sunic!mcsun!uunet!Cadence.COM!mas
>From: [e-mail] (Masud Khan)
>Subject: JFK and BUSH
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
>References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:31:37 GMT
>Lines: 9

>When was Bush head of CIA and do you think he know who killed
>Kennedy? (I know it's the CIA but which individuals?)

>Mas
>--
> C I T I Z E N       [e-mail]
> _____   _____
>      \_/
> _____/ \_____

If you read the big article about the history of cooperation between us, and
"beeings" (read: Greys) from outerspace, you would see a sentence something
like: "Watch the driver, he killed Kennedy"... Why? Read the article...

Trond
- Your friend in Norway
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From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: Aliens.Part1 - opinions anyone ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Magician) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (The Magician)
>Subject: Re: Aliens.Part1 - opinions anyone ?
>Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:52:21 GMT

>I would like to find out if any of this set of atricles (which looks like
>the source/sketch notes for a book) is true. I'm a skeptic at heart, but
>i must admit that some of the things outlined in the article do ring true.

>If there is a big alien presence on the planet, and they are trying to cover
>thier tracks, then there is a possibility that this article is disinformation.

>Come on guys, any opinons...

>IMHO the article does streach the creduality barrier a bit, but not being an
>American I cannot comment on the powerbases described in the context of the
>American constitution, or the political history described, but it does seem a
>bit ominous.

>Well..If martial law gets declared then watch your buts boyo's.

>Thats my farthing's worth.

>Tim.
>[e-mail]
>Dreams fade, but nightmares last for ever....


Much can be said about the article, but one thing is for sure: it was
interesting reading.
There are (ofcourse) many questionable shadows in it, but all in all it fits
well in due to my own picture of the whole situation. I've heard quite a lot
of it before, the question is:How indepentent are the different sources.
What if it turns out, going into depth, beeing the same basic source?
Still I find the most of the content believable. For instance the
abductions. Many different people are telling they have been manipulated
during some sort of kidnapping by "beeings" not like ourselves. By the way:
Does anyone know how many people beeing abducted? Are they located specially
to any particulary countrys? How do they pick their victims? ....


Trond

- Your friend in Norway
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From: [e-mail] (Arbaline)
Subject: Re: ET Races: (Was: Re: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [1 of 3])
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 09:29:00 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mr G S Sutherland) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jabir Hussain) writes:
>+In article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:
>+|> >3.01: Aryans (Blondes)
>+|> >----------------------
>+|> >Blond Nordic Humanoids who work with the greys. Said to be captured by
>+|>
>+|> You should mention the Centaurian extraterrestrials, who are blond
>+|> nordic types who come from Alpha Centauri - that's right: the closest
>+|>
>+|> DALs: This is a race of nordic types who come from what is called the
>+
>+Either Hitler was right, or there is one HELL of a market for peroxide out
>+there...

Not all humanoid ET's are "White Aryan Blondes". For example,
according to "UFO... Contact from the Pleiades", the Lyrians have
darker skin, closer to what I would guess to the average Asian. And
the Vegans it is said are even darker skinned still, probably pretty
close to an African American. It's just that the Pleiadians and
Centaurians who are close to us happen to have light skin and hair.

>There is also the paradox that the caucasian race was (as far as I've heard)
>the last racial group to arise on Earth. This seems awfully out of place with
>90% of the theories that say that the Pleideans (also white) are the actual
>ancestors of all humanity.

See above. Of course, at the same time it is said that the Pleiadians
come from Earth's future, or at least one of our possible futures.
This concept may be a little harder to grasp, but if so then they
could still travel back in time to father our race. Of course, we of
Earth still have lots to learn about the truth of our history too.

>Secondly, we seem to be the only species in the universe that shows any form
>of variation in our colouring, all others seem to lack this genetic trait...

This is probably just due to we of Earth stereotyping people of other
planets, just as we too often do the same to people on our own planet.
For example, there could be several sub-races of Vegans - not only
black but green and orange skinned too. And it just so happened that
one of the black Vegans was the one who landed on Billy Meier's lawn.
Hence the contact reports a "dark skinned humanoid from Vega" and we
all start assuming that all Vegans are black in our ET books and so
on. However, it also seems to be the case that Earth is visited more
often by more extraterrestrial races who have influenced our past and
genetics somewhat, so there probably is more racial diversity on Earth
than on other planets. Although remember, there are at least three
main different types of Greys, ranging from tan to white-grey skin,
and so on, so there's an example of alien diversity right there.

>Graeme Sutherland.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail]      |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 06:15:37 GMT
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[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Molinari) writes:
>Now maybe you'll keep your stinkiness to yourself....

The above is the world's wimpiest flame, as verified by Guinness.
Next he'll tell us we have cooties!  Oh NO!

                                -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12701 alt.alien.visitors:11035 sci.skeptic:34121
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 06:18:58 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Space People Watchers:  The people from other planets as far as
I have been told will give a sun a name (some of them call our
sun Shan) and we are considered to be the third orbit from our sun
unless you count Vulcan so we are the number three orbit planet of
the sun Shan, except they don't use the same words for your numbers.
John Winston. The people in our solar system use a inter planetary
language called Solar Max. It's  sort of the same way we use Latin
as an international language. I will now close with solar language
and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Winstons pyramid builders
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 06:34:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear Builders of Pyramids: The reason I recommended the show This
Old Pyramid is that it is a take off on the show This Old House
which talks about how to build and repair houses. This show will
give a person an idea of how the ancient people built the Great
Pyramid. It makes people think. I don't especially agree with all
of it but I am trying to learn how it was built myself.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please help me! _What_ was that?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 06:40:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Ulrich:
I have to go to work now but maybe I can explain what you saw a little
while later.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Blaylock)
Subject: Re: Alien in my laboratory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Admin)
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    If those are the criterion for alien[D[D[D[D[D
                    ^^^--Being an alien then:


        OH MY GOD!
            I'm An Alien!
--
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 92 06:09:15 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>>
>>Well I imagine that Henry Winkler has something to say about all of this.
>>He is the one whom produces quite a few of the UFO related "Sightings"
>>shows ,I think.
>>I might be wrong about the show, it could have been the periodical
>>"Mysteries of the Unknown", that feature quite a bit of UFO information. At
>>any rate, I think that he has a vested intrest in this phenomena.
>>
>>Mabye the Authors of the FAQ could put together a PETITION for all
>>interested in this group, possibly others, to send to Pres-elect Clinton.
>>What do you all think?
>>
>
> I really think that SOMEBODY needs to publicly put this question to the
> President, perhaps in front of cameras at a press conference (Clinton).
>
> The best person to be spokesman would be a press personality.
> Rod's suggestion is very good, and I had forgotten that the Fonz is a UFO
> nut like us...
> So short of getting Dan Rather to ask the Prez for us, maybe the best idea
> is to try and contact HW. Anyone have an idea of how to contact someone
> that is used to privacy in a big way? Maybe we could send a letter to
> him via his agent or manager, or production company?
>
> Jeff-
>
>
>


The subject is ikly to be so top secret that the new President-elect
is totally unaware of it. He will know the facts *real soon*. Look forward
to a change in attitude when this happens!

-Garrett

BTW: I voted for Gov. Clinton, I think he will make a fine President.



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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Re^2: alien info.wanted
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 16:38:29 GMT
Lines: 99

What started this whole thing:
[e-mail][writes]

 >>Is it a ufology requirement that one know nothing of elementary
> astronomy?

[e-mail][writes]
>
> Is it an astronomy requirement that one be a pompous ass?
>
> Rod
>

Max, Gregg, & the rest,

Injection of fact is one thing, delivery of moronic remarks is another. If
people must make uniformed sweeping statements about people of a certain
group to which I belong, I for one am not, as I have illustrated in the
past, going to just EAT IT. Nobody has to like it. Knee-jerk reaction to
such statements let the social bigots of the world know that in the future
they might be a little more thoughtful on what they say & do next time. If
you haven't noticed, I'm not part of the silent majority. For those of you
who are more thick skinned than I, live long & prosper, hopefully I will
reach that plateau someday.

When educating someone, it is just that----EDUCATION---one does not
ridicule someone for being ignorant. Ignorance is not a crime, it's just a
lack of knowledge. Point being that if [e-mail] wanted to educate,
then do it.
The crass remark at the end of his post defeats the whole purpose & meaning
of education & generally pisses me off. Let me give you an analogy:

Ok, time for a little (Oh my God!) networking lesson. The protocol in
question here is TCP/IP. There are three classes of addresses in TCP/IP,
they are as follows:

1) Class A: NIC.X.X.X        NIC=1-126    255=broadcast
2) Class B: NIC.NIC.X.X     NIC=128-191
2) Class C: NIC.NIC.NIC.X   NIC=192-223  224-254 reserved for testing

NIC= Network number assigned by the Network Information Center

X  = Network number assigned by local Network administrator

Addressing is 32bit
The format for each address is :0-255.0-255.0-255.0-255
Each '0-255' is called an octet

Q: Why do we have different classes of addresses & choose one over the
other?
A: The number of available hosts is greater in each progressively higher
class address. Example Class B address--> 150.165.20.10

There are 65,534 available hosts per network. 256times256 , in which the
extra two numbers that are given are reserved for the network
address(150.165.0.0) & the network broadcast address(150.165.255.255,
unless of course you choose to use subnetting in which the 255 numbers will
change according to how many bits you use for networks & how many bits you
use for hosts.)

There are 16,777,214 availiable host addresses for a class A address.
There are  255 available host addresses for a class C address.

End of lesson.

Is it a USENET requirement that one know nothing of elementary networking?
==========================================================================

Granted there are alot of you out there that probably know about
networking, my point being, for those of you that don't, is it nessesary
for you to know all
about networking to use or talk about it? I think not. Everyone has there
own expertise in certain areas. We are all slaves to technology one way or
another. It is not a requirement to know how a lightbulb works to turn it
on, but if you're interested, it's nice to know how it all works. It's all
in the presentation. Learning is supposed to be fun, not an insult.

If you all can't see my point...........................so be it.

BTW-There are in fact quite a few astronomers that are actively involved in
UFO research, amateur & professional. This invalidates the original snide
remark by
Jeff.


Rod*(Tired of pompous asses)*Beckwith




--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




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From: [e-mail] (John McAdams)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: JFK and BUSH
Date: 14 Nov 1992 21:58:52 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
    (Forrest Aldrich) writes:
>
>That was a great article... but:  what is it doing posted in
>ALT.ALIEN.VISITORS ???
>    ^^^^^

Maybe that tells you something, Forrest, about the sort of people into JFK
conspiracy theory.

I might have taken it seriously, except that I occasionally ran across
absurd misstatements of fact.  For example, that Nixon was going to run
against Kennedy in 1964.  Actually, his loss of the governors race in
California in 1962 was thought to have finished him politically.  Obviously
*he* hadn't given up.  But nobody thought of a Nixon candidacy in 1964.

Or the assertion that JFK learned about the Bay of Pigs a few hours before
it began.  In fact, his cabinet had discussed it quite far in advance.

Since most of the American public doesn't know the trivial details of who
was where on which day 30 years ago, it's possible to make absurd assertions
and get away with it.

.John McAdams
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Opera_Ghost)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 20:17:18 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tracy D. Kilroy) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:
>|  President Carter said that he saw a UFO with some other people
>|but skeptics say that he saw Venus.   Ronald Regan said that he
>|saw a UFO from Air Force One but no one took it seriously because
>|Regan often said things that didn't make sense.
>
> I was informed that Carter asked some government officials for the
>records of UFO research to be released but his request came back denied,
>and they would not even let him see any documents they had.
>
>Tracy
>University of Kentucky
>[e-mail]


This would lead one to believe that someone in the military has a bit too much
power.  Perhaps the best thing for Clinton to do would be to re-evaluate the
security in the US military complex.

CJR



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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 17:37:20 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <roelle.721602222@uars_mag> <[e-mail]>
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Yes Sir and Mam Folks: We're going to have to clean up the language
on this Net. You can never tell Rev. Don Showen may be listening.
John Winston
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pee Wee's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 17:43:31 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Pyramidologist: Boy now that's a name for you. I'll try to get
some more information about the Lone Pine  Pyramid on soon.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 17:48:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
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  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Big Foot Lovers: I have decided to change the subject we are
talking about to Monsters and Etc. This will be about unusal animals
and beings that are not normally talked about.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please help me! _What_ was that?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 18:02:30 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Ulrich: Let me give you a little information by referring to an
experience that a friend of mine had. His name is Dr. Patrick Bailey
who is a friend of Mr. Harder the famous University of Berkley UFO
investigator. Pat once had an experience of seeing a UFO that just
appeared as a light at night. He was able to watch the light and it
would respond to his thoughts to move from one place to the other
while he watched it for about 5 or more minutes. After that time
Pat became more and more  interested in the study of UFOs and now
devotes a great deal of time in the UFO work.
 It is my opinion that you were led to be in a place where you would
see the UFO. If you can stick with it and show that you are sincere
then you will see more of them and maybe even go aboard one of them
either in the physical form or the astral form. So stick in there.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Judd Christopher R.)
Subject: Groom Lake/Project Red Light
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Abilene Christian University, Abilene, TX
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 21:29:39 GMT
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I was just wondering if anyone had any information about the possibility of
saucers flying over Groom Lake in Nellis AFB in Nevada.  Please give any/all
information available.

Danger Maus
(aka Christopher Judd
     [e-mail]
or   [e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.alien.visitors,alt.fan.douglas-adams
Subject: Re: Blue Lint from the Dryer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 02:19:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Taed Nelson) writes:
|> It seems that whenever I wash and then dry my clothes that the "lint" (AKA
|>   "fluff") that gets caught in the "lint trap" is _always_ some shade of blue.
|>   I've seen very light blue (nearly white) and very dark blue.
|>
|> Last night, it was a medium-to-light blue, about the same color as the sky
|>   (I'm assuming that the sky is the same color everywhere -- I've only been to
|>   a few states and have never left the country :-), but the stuff I was drying
|>   was all _whites_.  It was underwear and socks only, but still the lint was
|>   blue.  There was no lint there when I put the clothes in, by the way.
|>
|> Now up to this point, I'd been a firm supporter of the conservation of color
|>   theory, which would propose that my clothes _in the other room_ would become
|>   less blue, but that's just not the case!
|>
|> Does anyone have any idea what is going one here?  I've wondered about this
|>   weird thing for years...

Now, _anyone_ with a certain level of education (i.e. who has read Douglas
Adam's Hitch-hiker trilogy) would now, and be able to recognize this as the
first trials of interstellar contact from the super-intelligent shade of blue
of the planet - eh - eh - (What's the name again folks?).

Sigh...

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin
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From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 02:22:45 GMT
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Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Big Foot Lovers: I have decided to change the subject we are
|> talking about to Monsters and Etc. This will be about unusal animals
|> and beings that are not normally talked about.
|> John Winston

We? Did anyone say we? I thought _you_ produced most of the stuff on
the sex-life of the Bigfoot - at least in terms of Kbytes...
--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Crocker)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: JFK and BUSH
Date: 15 Nov 1992 05:14:53 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I want to make clear that when I posted the article, I had some
question about the quality of the alleged interconnections. I do
not consider it the best material available on the subject, it was
merely what I had most readily available to post. I regret if my
doing so has brought a general disrepute upon Kennedy conspiracy
advocates in general, or those seeking to link George Bush to this
crime in particular - both of which opinions I believe have merit
despite the hyperbole and outright error of their more enthusiastic
advocates.

When I get a minute to track it down, I'll post the chapter  from
"The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush" which deals with the
JFK connection.

-Steve
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Crocker)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: JFK and BUSH
Date: 15 Nov 1992 05:32:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
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The following material is part of a longer, book length series on
George Bush originally posted on alt.activism. The book is by
researchers Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin, who are affiliated
with the organization of jailed American dissident Lyndon LaRouche.

My apologies to those on alt.alien.visitors, as I am unable to edit
the "newsgroups" line which is inserted automatically by the newsreader
here. Perhaps this is fate's way of indicating that George Bush really
is from somewhere else.

-Steve

<begin repost>

>From: [e-mail] (John Covici)
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Unauthorized Biography Of George Bush: Part 9
>Date: Wed Mar 25 05:26:46 1992

The following is part of a not yet published book being serialized in
New Federalist.  For further information, or to subscribe, please
contact me by e-mail.

If you missed the earlier postings, and would like to receive them, please
contact me by e-mail and I will  mail them to you.

CHAPTER IX

THE BAY OF PIGS AND THE KENNEDY
ASSASSINATION


``JM/WAVE ... proliferated across
[Florida] in preparation for the Bay of
Pigs invasion. A subculture of fronts,
proprietaries, suppliers, transfer
agents, conduits, dummy corporations,
blind drops, detective agencies, law
firms, electronic firms, shopping
centers, airlines, radio stations, the
mob and the church and the banks: a
false and secret nervous system
twitching to stimuli supplied by the
cortex in Clandestine Services in
Langley. After defeat on the beach in
Cuba, JM/WAVE became a continuing and
extended Miami Station, CIA's largest
in the continental United States. A
large sign in front of the ... building
complex reads: U.S. GOVERNMENT
REGULATIONS PROHIBIT DISCUSSION OF THIS
ORGANIZATION OR FACILITY.''
   --Donald Freed, {Death in
Washington} (Westport, Connecticut,
1980), p. 141.

   The review offered so far of
George Bush's activities during the
late 1950s and early 1960s is almost
certainly incomplete in very important
respects. There is good reason to
believe that Bush was engaged in
something more than just the oil
business during those years. Starting
about the time of the Bay of Pigs
invasion in the spring of 1961, we have
the first hints that Bush, in addition
to working for Zapata Offshore, may
also have been a participant in certain
covert operations of the U.S.
intelligence community.
   Such participation would certainly
be coherent with George's role in the
Prescott Bush, Skull and Bones, and
Brown Brothers Harriman networks.
During the twentieth century, the Skull
and Bones/Harriman circles have always
maintained a sizeable and often decisive
presence inside the intelligence
organizations of the State Department,
the Treasury Department, the Office of
Naval Intelligence, the Office of
Strategic Services, and the Central
Intelligence Agency.
   A body of leads has been assembled
which suggests that George Bush may
have been associated with the CIA at
some time before the autumn of 1963.
According to Joseph McBride of {The
Nation,} ``a source with close
connections to the intelligence
community confirms that Bush started
working for the agency in 1960 or 1961,
using his oil business as a cover for
clandestine activities.''@s1 By the
time of the Kennedy assassination, we
have an official FBI document which
refers to ``Mr. George Bush of the
Central Intelligence Agency,'' and
despite official disclaimers, there is
every reason to think that this is
indeed the man in the White House
today.
   The mystery of George Bush as a
possible covert operator hinges on four
points, each one of which represents
one of the great political and
espionage scandals of postwar American
history. These four cardinal points
are:
   1. The abortive Bay of Pigs
invasion of Cuba, launched on April
16-17, 1961, prepared with the
assistance of the CIA's ``Miami
Station'' (also known under the code
name JM/WAVE). After the failure of the
amphibious landings of Brigade 2506,
Miami station, under the leadership of
Theodore Shackley, became the focus for
Operation Mongoose, a series of covert
operations directed against Castro,
Cuba, and possibly other targets.
   2. The assassination of President
John F. Kennedy in Dallas on November
22, 1963, and the coverup of those
responsible for this crime.
   3. The Watergate scandal,
beginning with an April 1971 visit to
Miami, Florida by E. Howard Hunt on the
tenth anniversary of the Bay of Pigs
invasion to recruit operatives for the
White House Special Investigations Unit
(the ``Plumbers'' and later Watergate
burglars) from among Cuban-American Bay
of Pigs veterans.
   4. The Iran-Contra affair, which
became a public scandal during
October-November 1986, several of whose
central figures, such as Felix
Rodriguez, were also veterans of the
Bay of Pigs.
   George Bush's role in both
Watergate and the October
Surprise/Iran-Contra complex will be
treated in detail at later points in
this book. Right now, it is important to
see that thirty years of covert
operations, in many respects, form a
single continuous whole. This is
especially true in regard to the
{dramatis personae.} Georgie Anne Geyer
points to the obvious in a recent book:
`` ... an entire new Cuban cadre now
emerged from the Bay of Pigs. The names
Howard Hunt, Bernard Barker, Rolando
Martinez, Felix Rodriguez and Eugenio
Martinez would, in the next quarter
century, pop up, often decisively, over
and over again in the most dangerous
American foreign policy crises. There
were Cubans flying missions for the CIA
in the Congo and even for the
Portuguese in Africa; Cubans were the
burglars of Watergate; Cubans played
key roles in Nicaragua, in Irangate, in
the American move into the Persian
Gulf.''@s2 Felix Rodriguez tells us
that he was infiltrated into Cuba with
the other members of the ``Grey Team''
in conjunction with the Bay of Pigs
landings; this is the same man we will
find directing the Contra supply effort
in Central America during the 1980s,
working under the direct supervision of
Don Gregg and George Bush.@s3 Theodore
Shackley, the JM/WAVE station chief,
will later show up in Bush's 1979-80
presidential campaign.
   To a very large degree, such
covert operations have drawn upon the
same pool of personnel. They are to a
significant extent the handiwork of the
same crowd. It is therefore revealing
to extrapolate forward and backward in
time the individuals and groups of
individuals who appear as the cast of
characters in one scandal, and compare
them with the cast of characters for
the other scandals, including the
secondary ones that have not been
enumerated here. E. Howard Hunt, for
example, shows up as a confirmed part
of the overthrow of the Guatemalan
government of Jacopo Arbenz in 1954, as
an important part of the chain of
command in the Bay of Pigs, as a person
repeatedly accused of having been in
Dallas on the day Kennedy was shot, and
as one of the central figures of
Watergate.
   George Bush is demonstrably one of
the most important protagonists of the
Watergate scandal, and was the overall
director of Iran-Contra. Since he
appears especially in Iran-Contra in
close proximity to Bay of Pigs
holdovers, it is surely legitimate to
wonder when his association with those
Bay of Pigs Cubans might have started.
   1959 was the year that Bush
started operating out of his Zapata
Offshore headquarters in Houston; it
was also the year that Fidel Castro
seized power in Cuba. Officially, as we
have seen, George was now a businessman
whose work took him at times to
Louisiana, where Zapata had offshore
drilling operations. George must have
been a frequent visitor to New Orleans.
Because of his family's estate on
Jupiter Island, he would also have been
a frequent visitor to the Hobe Sound
area. And then, there were Zapata
Offshore drilling operations in the
Florida strait.
   The Jupiter Island connection and
father Prescott's Brown Brothers
Harriman/Skull and Bones networks are
doubtless the key. Jupiter Island meant
Averell Harriman, Robert Lovett, C.
Douglas Dillon and other Anglophile
financiers who had directed the U.S.
intelligence community long before
there had been a CIA at all. And, in
the backyard of the Jupiter Island
Olympians, and under their direction, a
powerful covert operations base was now
being assembled, in which George Bush
would have been present at the creation
as a matter of birthright.

   Operation Zapata

   During 1959-60, Allen Dulles and
the Eisenhower administration began to
assemble in south Florida the
infrastructure for covert action
against Cuba. This was the JM/WAVE
capability, later formally constituted
as the CIA Miami station. JM/WAVE was
an operational center for the
Eisenhower regime's project of staging
an invasion of Cuba using a secret army
of anti-Castro Cuban exiles, organized,
armed, trained, transported, and
directed by the CIA. The Cubans, called
Brigade 2506, were trained in secret
camps in Guatemala, and they had air
support from B-26 bombers based in
Nicaragua. This invasion was crushed by
Castro's defending forces in less than
three days.
   Before going along with the plan
so eagerly touted by Allen Dulles,
Kennedy had established the
precondition that under no
circumstances whatsoever would there be
direct intervention by U.S. military
forces against Cuba. On the one hand,
Dulles had assured Kennedy that the
news of the invasion would trigger an
insurrection which would sweep Castro
and his regime away. On the other,
Kennedy had to be concerned about
provoking a global thermonuclear
confrontation with the U.S.S.R., in the
eventuality that Nikita Khrushchev
decided to respond to a U.S. Cuban
gambit by, for example, cutting off
U.S. access to Berlin.
   Hints of the covert presence of
George Bush are scattered here and
there around the Bay of Pigs invasion.
According to some accounts, the code
name for the Bay of Pigs was Operation
Pluto.@s4 But Bay of Pigs veteran
E. Howard Hunt scornfully denies that this
was the code name used by JM/WAVE
personnel; Hunt writes: ``So perhaps
the Pentagon referred to the Brigade
invasion as Pluto. CIA did not.''@s5
But Hunt does not tell us what the CIA
code name was, and the contents of
Hunt's Watergate-era White House safe,
which might have told us the answer,
were, of course, ``deep-sixed'' by FBI
Director Patrick Gray.
   According to reliable sources and
published accounts, the CIA code name
for the Bay of Pigs invasion was
Operation Zapata, and the plan was so
referred to by Richard Bissell of the
CIA, one of the plan's promoters, in a
briefing to President Kennedy in the
Cabinet Room on March 29, 1961.@s6 Does
Operation Zapata have anything to do
with Zapata Offshore? The
run-of-the-mill Bushman might respond
that Emiliano Zapata, after all, had
been a public figure in his own right,
and the subject of a recent Hollywood
movie starring Marlon Brando. A more
knowledgeable Bushman might argue that
the main landing beach, the Playa
Giron, is located south of the city of
Cienfuegos on the Zapata Peninsula, on
the south coast of Cuba.
   Then there is the question of the
Brigade 2506 landing fleet, which was
composed of five older freighters
bought or chartered from the Garcia
Steamship Lines, bearing the names of
{Houston,} {Rio
Escondido,} {Caribe,}
{Atlantic,} and {Lake
Charles.} In addition to these
vessels, which were outfitted as
transport ships, there were two
somewhat better armed fire support
ships, the {Blagar} and the
{Barbara.} (In some sources
{Barbara J.})@s7 The
{Barbara} was originally an LCI
(Landing Craft Infantry) of earlier
vintage. Our attention is attracted at
once to the {Barbara} and the
{Houston,} in the first case
because we have seen George Bush's
habit of naming his combat aircraft
after his wife, and, in the second
case, because Bush was at this time a
resident and Republican activist of
Houston, Texas. But of course, the
appearance of names like ``Zapata,''
``Barbara,'' and ``Houston'' can by
itself only arouse suspicion, and
proves nothing.
   After the ignominious defeat of
the Bay of Pigs invasion, there was
great animosity against Kennedy among
the survivors of Brigade 2506, some of
whom eventually made their way back to
Miami after being released from
Castro's prisoner of war camps. There
was also great animosity against
Kennedy on the part of the JM/WAVE
personnel.
   During the early 1950s, E. Howard
Hunt had been the CIA station chief in
Mexico City. As David Atlee Phillips
(another embittered JM/WAVE veteran)
tells us in his autobiographical
account, {The Night Watch,} E. Howard Hunt
had been the immediate superior of a
young CIA recruit named William F.
Buckley, the Yale graduate and Skull
and Bones member who later founded the
{National Review.} In his
autobiographical account written during
the days of the Watergate scandal, Hunt
includes the following tirade about the
Bay of Pigs:
   ``No event since the
communization of China in 1949 has had
such a profound effect on the United
States and its allies as the defeat of
the U.S.-trained Cuban invasion brigade
at the Bay of Pigs in April 1961.
   ``Out of that humiliation grew the
Berlin Wall, the missile crisis,
guerrilla warfare throughout Latin
America and Africa, and our Dominican
Republic intervention. Castro's
beachhead triumph opened a bottomless
Pandora's box of difficulties that
affected not only the United States,
but most of its allies in the Free
World.
   ``These bloody and subversive events
would not have taken place had Castro
been toppled. Instead of standing firm,
our government pyramided crucially
wrong decisions and allowed Brigade
2506 to be destroyed. The Kennedy
administration yielded Castro all the
excuse he needed to gain a tighter grip
on the island of Jose@aa Marti, then moved
shamefacedly into the shadows and hoped
the Cuban issue would simply melt
away.''@s8

   Kennedy and MacArthur

   Hunt was typical of the opinion
that the debacle had been Kennedy's
fault, and not the responsibility of
men like Allen Dulles and Richard
Bissell, who had designed it and
recommended it. After the embarrassing
failure of the invasion, which never
evoked the hoped-for spontaneous
anti-Castro insurrection, Kennedy fired
Allen Dulles, his Harrimanite deputy
Bissell, and CIA Deputy Director
Charles Cabell (whose brother was the
mayor of Dallas at the time Kennedy was
shot).
   During the days after the Bay of
Pigs debacle, Kennedy was deeply
suspicious of the intelligence
community and of proposals for military
escalation in general, including in
places like South Vietnam. Kennedy
sought to procure an outside, expert
opinion on military matters. For this
he turned to the former commander in
chief of the Southwest Pacific Theatre
during World War II, General Douglas
MacArthur. Almost ten years ago, a
reliable source shared with one of the
authors an account of a meeting between
Kennedy and MacArthur in which the
veteran general warned the young
President that there were elements
inside the U.S. government who
emphatically did not share his
patriotic motives, and who were seeking
to destroy his administration from
within. MacArthur warned that the
forces bent on destroying Kennedy were
centered in the Wall Street financial
community and its various tentacles in
the intelligence community.
   It is a matter of public record
that Kennedy met with MacArthur in the
latter part of April 1961, after the
Bay of Pigs. According to Kennedy aide
Theodore Sorenson, MacArthur told
Kennedy, ``The chickens are coming home
to roost, and you happen to have just
moved into the chicken house.''@s9 At
the same meeting, according to
Sorenson, MacArthur ``warned [Kennedy]
against the commitment of American foot
soldiers on the Asian mainland, and the
President never forgot this advice.''
@s1@s0 This point is grudgingly
confirmed by Arthur M. Schlesinger, a
Kennedy aide who had a vested interest
in vilifying MacArthur, who wrote that
``MacArthur expressed his old view that
anyone wanting to commit American
ground forces to the mainland [of Asia]
should have his head examined.''@s1@s1
MacArthur restated this advice during a
second meeting with Kennedy when the
General returned from his last trip to
the Far East in July 1961.
   Kennedy valued MacArthur's
professional military opinion highly,
and used it to keep at arms length
those advisers who were arguing for
escalation in Laos, Vietnam, and
elsewhere. He repeatedly invited those
who proposed to send land forces to
Asia to convince MacArthur that this
was a good idea. If they could
convince MacArthur, then he, Kennedy,
might also go along.
   At this time, the group proposing
escalation in Vietnam (as well as
preparing the assassination of
President Diem) had a heavy Brown
Brothers Harriman/Skull and Bones
overtone: The hawks of 1961-63 were
Harriman, McGeorge Bundy, William
Bundy, Henry Cabot Lodge, and some key
London oligarchs and theoreticians of
counterinsurgency wars. And of course,
George Bush during these years was
calling for escalation in Vietnam and
challenging Kennedy to ``muster the
courage'' to try a second invasion of
Cuba.
   In the meantime, the JM/WAVE-Miami
station complex was growing rapidly to
become the largest of Langley's many
satellites. During the years after the
failure of the Bay of Pigs, this
complex had as many as 3,000 Cuban
agents and subagents, with a small army
of case officers to direct and look
after each one. According to one
account, there were at least 55 dummy
corporations to provide employment,
cover, and commercial disguise for all
these operatives. There were detective
bureaus, gun stores, real estate
brokerages, boat repair shops, and
party boats for fishing and other
entertainments. There was the
clandestine Radio Swan, later renamed
Radio Americas. There were fleets of
specially modified boats based at
Homestead Marina, and at other marinas
throughout the Florida Keys. Agents
were assigned to the University of
Miami and other educational
institutions.
   The raison d'e@aftre of the massive
capability commanded by Theodore
Shackley was now Operation Mongoose, a
program for sabotage raids and
assassinations to be conducted on Cuban
territory, with a special effort to
eliminate Fidel Castro personally. In
order to run these operations from U.S.
territory, flagrant and extensive
violation of federal and state laws was
the order of the day. Documents
regarding the incorporation of
businesses were falsified. Income tax
returns were faked. FAA regulations
were violated by planes taking off for
Cuba or for forward bases in the
Bahamas and elsewhere. Explosives moved
across highways that were full of
civilian traffic. The Munitions Act,
the Neutrality Act, the customs and
immigrations laws were routinely
flaunted.@s1@s2
   Above all, the drug laws were
massively violated as the gallant
anticommunist fighters filled their
planes and boats with illegal narcotics
to be smuggled back into the United
States when they returned from their missions. By
1963, the drug-running activities of
the covert operatives were beginning to
attract attention. JM/WAVE, in sum,
accelerated the slide of south Florida
towards the status of drug and murder
capital of the United States it
achieved during the 1980s.

   The Kennedy Assassination

   It cannot be the task of this
study even to begin to treat the
reasons for which certain leading
elements of the Anglo-American
financial oligarchy, perhaps acting
with certain kinds of support from
continental European aristocratic and
neofascist networks, ordered the murder
of John F. Kennedy. The British and the
Harrimanites wanted escalation in
Vietnam; by the time of his
assassination Kennedy was committed to
a pullout of U.S. forces. Kennedy, as
shown by his American University speech
of 1963, was also interested in seeking
a more stable path of war avoidance
with the Soviets, using the U.S.
military superiority demonstrated
during the Cuban missile crisis to
convince Moscow to accept a policy of
world peace through economic
development. Kennedy was interested in
the possibilities of anti-missile
strategic defense to put an end to that
nightmare of Mutually Assured
Destruction which appealed to Henry
Kissinger, a disgruntled former
employee of the Kennedy administration
whom the President had denounced as a
madman.
   Kennedy was also considering moves
to limit or perhaps abolish the
usurpation of authority over the
national currency by the Wall Street
and London interests controlling the
Federal Reserve System. If elected
to a second term, Kennedy was likely to
reassert presidential control, as
distinct from Wall Street control, over
the intelligence community. There is
good reason to believe that Kennedy
would have ousted J. Edgar Hoover from
his purported life tenure at the FBI,
subjecting that agency to presidential
control for the first time in many
years. Kennedy was committed to a
vigorous expansion of the space
program, the cultural impact of which
was beginning to alarm the finance
oligarchs.
   Above all, Kennedy was
acting like a man who thought he was
President of the United States,
violating the collegiality of
oligarchical trusteeship of that office
that had been in force since the final
days of Roosevelt. Kennedy furthermore
had two younger brothers who might
succeed him, putting a strong
presidency beyond the control of the
the Eastern Anglophile Liberal
Establishment for decades. George Bush
joined in the Harrimanite opposition to
Kennedy on all of these points.
   After Kennedy was killed in Dallas
on November 22, 1963, it was alleged
that E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis
had both been present, possibly
together, in Dallas on the day of the
shooting, although the truth of these
allegations has never been finally
established. Both Hunt and Sturgis were
of course Bay of Pigs veterans who
would later appear center stage in
Watergate. There were also allegations
that Hunt and Sturgis were among a
group of six to eight derelicts who
were found in boxcars sitting on the
railroad tracks behind the grassy knoll
near Dealey Plaza, and who were rounded
up and taken in for questioning by the
Dallas police on the day of the
assassination. Some suspected that Hunt
and Sturgis had participated in the
assassination. Some of these
allegations were at the center of the
celebrated 1985 defamation case of
{Hunt v. Liberty Lobby,} in which a
Florida federal jury found against
Hunt. But, since the Dallas Police
Department and County Sheriff never
photographed or fingerprinted the
``derelicts'' in question, it has so
far proven impossible definitively to
resolve this question. But these
allegations and theories about the
possible presence and activities of
Hunt and Sturgis in Dallas were
sufficiently widespread as to compel
the Commission on CIA Activities Within
the United States (the Rockefeller
Commission) to attempt to refute them
in its 1975 report.@s1@s3
   According to George Bush's
official biography, he was during 1963
a well-to-do businessman residing in
Houston, the busy president of Zapata
Offshore and the chairman of the Harris
County Republican Organization,
supporting Barry Goldwater as the GOP's
1964 presidential candidate, while at
the same time actively preparing his
own 1964 bid for the U.S. Senate. But
during that same period of time, Bush
may have shared some common
acquaintances with Lee Harvey Oswald.

   The De Mohrenschildt
Connection

   Between October 1962 and April
1963, Lee Harvey Oswald and his Russian
wife Marina were in frequent contact
with a Russian emigre@aa couple living in
Dallas: These were George de
Mohrenschildt and his wife Jeanne.
During the Warren Commission
investigation of the Kennedy
assassination, De Mohrenschildt was
interviewed at length about his
contacts with Oswald. When, in the
spring of 1977, the discrediting of the
Warren Commission report as a blatant
coverup had made public pressure for a
new investigation of the Kennedy
assassination irresistible, the House
Assassinations Committee planned to
interview De Mohrenschildt once again.
But in March 1977, just before de
Mohrenschildt was scheduled to be
interviewed by Gaeton Fonzi of the
House committee's staff, he was found
dead in Palm Beach, Florida. His death
was quickly ruled a suicide. One of the
last people to see him alive was Edward
Jay Epstein, who was also interviewing
De Mohrenschildt about the Kennedy
assassination for an upcoming book.
Epstein is one of the writers on the
Kennedy assassination who enjoyed
excellent relations with the late James
Angleton of the CIA. If de
Mohrenschildt were alive today, he
might be able to enlighten us about his
relations with George Bush, and perhaps
afford us some insight into Bush's
activities during this epoch.
   Jeanne De Mohrenschildt rejected
the finding of suicide in her husband's
death. ``He was eliminated before he
got to that committee,'' the widow told
a journalist in 1978, ``because someone
did not want him to get to it.'' She
also maintained that George de
Mohrenschildt had been surreptitiously
injected with mind-altering
drugs.@s1@s4
   After De Mohrenschildt's death,
his personal address book was located,
and it contained this entry: ``Bush,
George H.W. (Poppy) 1412 W. Ohio also
Zapata Petroleum Midland.'' There is of
course the problem of dating this
reference. George Bush had moved his
office and home from Midland to Houston
in 1959, when Zapata Offshore was
constituted, so perhaps this reference
goes back to some time before 1959.
There is also the number: ``4-6355.''
There are, of course, numerous other
entries, including one W.F. Buckley of
the Buckley brothers of New York City,
William S. Paley of CBS, plus many oil
men, stockbrokers, and the like.@s1@s5
   George De Mohrenschildt recounted
a number of different versions of his
life, so it is very difficult to
establish the facts about him.
According to one version, he was the
Russian Count Sergei De Mohrenschildt,
but when he arrived in the United
States in 1938 he carried a Polish
passport identifying him as Jerzy
Sergius von Mohrenschildt, born in
Mozyr, Russia in 1911. He may in fact
have been a Polish officer, or a
correspondent for the Polish News
Service, or none of these. He worked
for a time for the Polish Embassy in
Washington, D.C. Some say that de
Mohrenschildt met the chairman of
Humble Oil, Blaffer, and that Blaffer
procured him a job. Other sources say
that during this time De Mohrenschildt
was affiliated with the War Department.
According to some accounts, he later
went to work for the French Deuxie@agme
Bureau, which wanted to know about
petroleum exports from the United
States to Europe.
   De Mohrenschildt in 1941 became
associated with a certain Baron
Konstantin von Maydell in a public
affairs venture called ``Facts and
Film.'' Maydell was considered a Nazi
agent by the FBI, and in September 1942
he was sent to North Dakota for an
internment that would last four years.
De Mohenschildt was also reportedly in
contact with Japanese networks at this
time. In June 1941, De Mohrenschildt
was questioned by police at Port
Arthur, Texas, on the suspicion of
espionage after he was found making
sketches of port facilities. During
1941, De Mohrenschildt applied for a
post in the U.S. Office of Strategic
Services (OSS). According to the
official account, he was not hired.
Soon after he made the application, he
went to Mexico where he stayed until
1944. In the latter year, he began
study for a master's degree in
petroleum engineering at the University
of Texas. According to some accounts,
during this period De Mohrenschildt was
investigated by the Office of Naval
Intelligence because of alleged
communist sympathies.
   After the war, De Mohrenschildt
worked as a petroleum engineer in Cuba
and Venezuela, and in Caracas he had
several meetings with the Soviet
ambassador. During the postwar years, he
also worked in the Rangely oil field in
Colorado. During the 1950s, after
having married Winifred Sharpless, the
daughter of an oil millionaire, de
Mohrenschildt was active as an
independent oil entrepreneur.
   In 1957, De Mohrenschildt was
approved by the CIA Office of Security
to be hired as a U.S. government
geologist for a mission to Yugoslavia.
Upon his return he was interviewed by
one J. Walter Moore of the CIA's
Domestic Contact Service, with whom he
remained in contact. During 1958, de
Mohrenschildt visited Ghana, Togo, and
Dahomey (now Benin); during 1959, he
visited Africa again and returned by
way of Poland. In 1959, he married
Jeanne, his fourth wife, a former
ballet dancer and dress designer who
had been born in Manchuria, where her
father had been one of the directors of
the Chinese Eastern Railroad.
   During the summer of 1960, George
and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt told their
friends that they were going to embark
on a walking tour of 11,000 miles along
Indian trails from Mexico to Central
America. One of their principal
destinations was Guatemala City, where
they were staying at the time of the
Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961,
after which they made their way home by
way of Panama and Haiti. After two
months in Haiti, the De Mohrenschildts
returned to Dallas, where they came
into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald,
who had come back to the United States
from his sojourn in the Soviet Union in
June 1962. By this time, de
Mohrenschildt was also in frequent
contact with Admiral Henry C. Bruton
and his wife, to whom he introduced the
Oswalds. Admiral Bruton was the former
director of naval communications.
   It is established that between
October 1962 and late April 1963, de
Mohrenschildt was a very important
figure in the life of Oswald and his
Russian wife. Despite Oswald's lack of
social graces, De Mohrenschildt
introduced him into Dallas society,
took him to parties, assisted him in
finding employment and much more. It
was through De Mohrenschildt that
Oswald met a certain Volkmar Schmidt, a
young German geologist who had studied
with Professor Wilhelm Kuetemeyer, an
expert in psychosomatic medicine and
religious philosophy at the University
of Heidelberg, who compiled a detailed
psychological profile of Oswald. Jeanne
and George helped Marina move her
belongings during one of her many
estrangements from Oswald. According to
some accounts, De Mohrenschildt's
influence on Oswald was so great during
this period that he could virtually
dictate important decisions to the
young ex-Marine simply by making
suggestions.
   According to some versions, de
Mohrenschildt was aware of Oswald's
alleged April 10, 1963 attempt to
assassinate the well-known right-wing
General Edwin Walker. According to
Marina, De Mohrenschildt once asked
Oswald, ``Lee, how did you miss General
Walker?'' On April 19, George and
Jeanne De Mohrenschildt went to New
York City, and on April 29, the CIA
Office of Security found that it had no
objection to De Mohrenschildt's
acceptance of a contract with the
Duvalier regime of Haiti in the field
of natural resource development. De
Mohrenschildt appears to have departed
for Haiti on May 1, 1963. In the
meantime, Oswald had left Dallas and
traveled to New Orleans.
   According to Mark Lane, ``there is
evidence that De Mohrenschildt served
as a CIA control officer who directed
Oswald's actions.'' Much of the
extensive published literature on de
Mohrenschildt converges on the idea
that he was a control agent for
Oswald on behalf of some intelligence
agency.@s1@s6
   It is therefore highly interesting
that George Bush's name turns up in the
personal address book of George de
Mohrenschildt.
   The Warren Commission went to
absurd lengths to cover up the fact
that George De Mohrenschildt was a
denizen of the world of the
intelligence agencies. This included
ignoring the well-developed paper trail
on De Mohrenschildt as Nazi and
communist sympathizer, and later as a
U.S. asset abroad. The Warren
Commission concluded:
   ``The Commission's
investigation has developed no signs of
subversive or disloyal conduct on the
part of either of the de
Mohrenschildts. Neither the FBI, CIA,
nor any witnesses contacted by the
Commission has provided any information
linking the De Mohrenschildts to
subversive or extremist organizations.
Nor has there been any evidence linking
them in any way with the assassination
of President Kennedy.''@s1@s7

   Bush, the CIA, and Kennedy

   On the day of the Kennedy
assassination, FBI records show George
Bush as reporting a right-wing member
of the Houston Young Republicans for
making threatening comments about
President Kennedy. According to FBI
documents released under the Freedom of
Information Act,
   ``On November 22, 1963 Mr.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, 5525 Briar, Houston,
Texas, telephonically advised that he
wanted to relate some hear say that he
had heard in recent weeks, date and
source unknown. He advised that one
JAMES PARROTT had been talking of
killing the President when he comes to
Houston.
   ``PARROTT is possibly a student at
the University of Houston and is active
in politics in the Houston area.''
   According to related FBI
documentation, ``a check with Secret
Service at Houston, Texas revealed that
agency had a report that PARROTT stated
in 1961 he would kill President Kennedy
if he got near him.'' Here Bush is
described as ``a reputable
businessman.'' FBI agents were sent to
interrogate Parrott's mother, and later
James Milton Parrott himself. Parrott
had been discharged from the U.S. Air
Force for psychiatric reasons in 1959.
Parrott had an alibi for the time of
the Dallas shootings; he had been in
the company of another Republican
activist. According to press accounts,
Parrott was a member of the right-wing
faction of the Houston GOP, which was
oriented toward the John Birch Society
and which opposed Bush's
chairmanship.@s1@s8 According to the
{San Francisco Examiner,}
Bush's press office in August 1988
first said that Bush had not made any
such call, and challenged the
authenticity of the FBI documents.
Several days later Bush's spokesman
said that the candidate ``does not
recall'' placing the call.
   One day after he reported
Parrott to the FBI, Bush received a
highly sensitive, high-level briefing
from the Bureau:
   ``Date: November 29, 1963
   ``To: Director of Intelligence and Research
Department of State
   ``From: John Edgar Hoover, Director
   ``Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F.
KENNEDY, NOVEMBER 22, 1963
   ``Our Miami, Florida Office on
November 23, 1963 advised that the
Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs
in Miami advised that the Department of
State feels some misguided anti-Castro
group might capitalize on the present
situation and undertake an unauthorized
raid against Cuba, believing that the
assassination of President John F.
Kennedy might herald a change in U.S.
policy, which is not true.
    ``Our sources and informants
familiar with Cuban matters in the
Miami area advise that the general
feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban
community is one of stunned disbelief
and, even among those who did not
entirely agree with the President's
policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is
that the President's death represents a
great loss not only to the U.S. but to
all Latin America. These sources know
of no plans for unauthorized action
against Cuba.
   ``An informant who has furnished
reliable information in the past and
who is close to a small pro-Castro
group in Miami has advised that those
individuals are afraid that the
assassination of the President may
result in strong repressive measures
being taken against them and, although
pro-Castro in their feelings, regret
the assassination.
   ``The substance of the foregoing
information was orally furnished to Mr.
George Bush of the Central Intelligence
Agency and Captain William Edwards of
the Defense Intelligence Agency on
November 23, 1963, by Mr. W.T. Forsyth
of this Bureau.''
   William T. Forsyth, since
deceased, was an official of the FBI's
Washington headquarters; during the
time he was attached to the bureau's
subversive control section, he ran the
investigation of Dr. Martin Luther
King. Was he also a part of the FBI's
harassment of Dr. King?
   The efforts of journalists to
locate Captain Edwards have not been
successful.
   This FBI document identifying
George Bush as a CIA agent in November
1963 was first published by Joseph
McBride in {The Nation} in July 1988,
just before Bush received the
Republican nomination for President.
McBride's source observed: ``I know
[Bush] was involved in the Caribbean. I
know he was involved in the suppression
of things after the Kennedy
assassination. There was a very
definite worry that some Cuban groups
were going to move against Castro and
attempt to blame it on the CIA.''@s1@s9
When pressed for confirmation or
denial, Bush's spokesman Stephen Hart
commented: ``Must be another George
Bush.''
   Within a short time, the CIA itself
would peddle the same damage control
line. On July 19, 1988, in the wake of
wide public attention to the report
published in {The Nation,} CIA
spokeswoman Sharron Basso departed from
the normal CIA policy of refusing to
confirm or deny reports that any person
is or was a CIA employee. CIA
spokeswoman Basso told the Associated
Press that the CIA believed that ``the
record should be clarified.'' She said
that the FBI document ``apparently''
referred to a George William Bush who
had worked in 1963 on the night shift
at CIA headquarters, and that ``would
have been the appropriate place to have
received such an FBI report.''
According to her account, the George
William Bush in question had left the
CIA to join the Defense Intelligence
Agency in 1964.
   For the CIA to volunteer the name
of one of its former employees to the
press was a shocking violation of
traditional methods, which are
supposedly designed to keep such names
a closely guarded secret. This
revelation may have constituted a
violation of federal law. But no
exertions were too great when it came
to damage control for George Bush.
   George William Bush had indeed
worked for the CIA, the DIA, and the
Alexandria, Virginia Department of
Public Welfare before joining the
Social Security Administration, in
whose Arlington, Virginia office he was
employed as a claims representative in
1988. George William Bush told {The
Nation} that while at the CIA he was
``just a lowly researcher and analyst''
who worked with documents and photos
and never received interagency
briefings. He had never met Forsyth of
the FBI or Captain Edwards of the DIA.
``So it wasn't me,'' said George
William Bush.@s2@s0
   Later, George William Bush
formalized his denial in a sworn
statement to a federal court in
Washington, D.C. The affidavit
acknowledges that while working at CIA
headquarters between September 1963 and
February 1964, George William Bush was
the junior person on a three- to
four-man watch which was on duty
when Kennedy was shot. But, as George
William Bush goes on to say, ``have carefully reviewed
the FBI memorandum to the Director,
Bureau of Intelligence and Research,
Department of State dated November 29,
1963 which mentions a Mr. George Bush
of the Central Intelligence Agency....
I do not recognize the contents of the
memorandum as information furnished to
me orally or otherwise during the time
I was at the CIA. In fact, during my
time at the CIA, I did not receive any
oral communications from any government
agency of any nature whatsoever. I did
not receive any information relating to
the Kennedy assassination during my
time at the CIA from the FBI.
   ``Based on the above, it is my
conclusion that I am not the Mr. George
Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency
referred to in the memorandum.''@s2@s1
   So we are left with the strong
suspicion that the ``Mr. George Bush of
the CIA'' referred to by the FBI is our
own George Herbert Walker Bush, who, in
addition to his possible contact with
Lee Harvey Oswald's controller, may
thus also join the ranks of the Kennedy
assassination coverup. It makes
perfect sense for George Bush to be
called in on a matter involving the
Cuban community in Miami, since that is
a place where George has traditionally
had a constituency. George inherited it
from his father, Prescott Bush of
Jupiter Island, and later passed it on
to his own son, Jeb.

Notes to Chapter 9


1.
Joseph McBride, ``|`George
Bush,' C.I.A. Operative,'' {The Nation}
July 16, 1988.

   2.
Georgie Anne Geyer, {Guerrilla
Prince} (Boston: Little, Brown, 1991).

   3.
Felix Rodriguez, {Shadow
Warrior} (New York: Simon and Schuster,
1989).

   4.
On Pluto, see the East German
study by Guenter Schumacher, {Operation
Pluto} (Berlin, Deutscher
Milita@aurverlag, 1966).

   5.
E. Howard Hunt, {Give Us This
Day} (New Rochelle: Arlington House,
1973), p. 214.

   6.
For Operation Zapata, see
Michael R. Beschloss, {The Crisis
Years: Kennedy and Khrushchev, 1960-63}
(New York: Edward Burlingame Books,
1991), p. 89.

   7.
For the names of the ships at
the Bay of Pigs, see Quintin Pino
Machado, {La Batalla de Giron} (La
Habana: Editorial de Ciencias Sociales,
1983), pp. 79-80. This source quotes
one ship as the ``Barbara J.'' See also
Schumacher, {Operation Pluto,} pp.
98-99. See also Peter Wyden, {Bay of
Pigs, The Untold Story} (New York:
Simon and Schuster, 1979), which also
has the ``Barbara J.'' According to
Quintin Pino Machado, the ``Houston''
had been given the new name of
``Aguja'' (Swordfish) and the
``Barbara'' that of ``Barracuda'' for
the purposes of this operation.

   8.
E. Howard Hunt, {op. cit.,} pp.
13-14.

   9.
Theodore Sorenson, {Kennedy}
(New York: Bantam, 1966), p. 329.

   10.
{Ibid.,} p. 723.

   11.
Arthur M. Schlesinger, {A
Thousand Days} (Boston, 1965), p. 339.

   12.
See Warren Hinckle and William
W. Turner, {The Fish is Red} (New York:
Harper and Row, 1981), pp. 112 ff.

   13.
{Report to the President by
the Commission on CIA Activities Within
the United States} (Washington: U.S.
Government Printing Office, 1975), pp.
251-267.

   14.
Jim Marrs, ``Widow disputes
suicide,'' {Fort Worth Evening
Star-Telegram,} May 11, 1978.

   15.
A photocopy of George de
Mohrenschildt's personal address book
is preserved at the Assassination
Archives and Research Center,
Washington, D.C. The Bush entry is also
cited in Mark Lane, {Plausible Denial}
(New York: Thunder's Mouth Press,
1991), p. 332.

   16.
For De Mohrenschildt, see Mark
Lane, {op. cit.}; Edward Jay
Epstein, {Legend: The Secret World of
Lee Harvey Oswald} (London: Hutchinson,
1978); C. Robert Blakey and Richard N.
Billings, {The Plot to Kill the
President} (New York: Times Books,
1981); and Robert Sam Anson, {``They've
Killed The President!''} (New York:
Bantam, 1975).

   17.
{Report of the Warren
Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy} (New York: Bantam,
1964), p. 262.

   18.
Miguel Acoca, ``FBI: `Bush'
called about JFK killing,'' {San
Francisco Examiner,} Aug. 25, 1988.

   19.
Joseph McBride, ``|`George
Bush,' CIA Operative,'' {The Nation,}
July 16/23, 1988, p. 42.

   20.
Joseph McBride, ``Where {Was}
George?'' {The Nation,} Aug. 13/20,
1988, p. 117.

   21.
United States District Court
for the District of Columbia, Civil
Action 88-2600 GHR, Assassination
Archives and Research Center v. Central
Intelligence Agency, Affidavit of
George William Bush, Sept. 21, 1988.

----
Please respond by e-mail as I get very far behind in reading this
newsgroup.

         John Covici
          [e-mail]

<end repost>

-Steve
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12712 alt.alien.visitors:11052 sci.skeptic:34142 alt.butt.harp:311 alt.religion.kibology:4645
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.butt.harp,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants... IN BED!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 06:05:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Lines: 22

[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>              The people in our solar system use a inter planetary
>language called Solar Max.

Gee, how interesting.  They named their WHOLE LANGUAGE after an old NASA
satellite!

>It's  sort of the same way we use Latin
>as an international language.

We do?  What century are you in?  Do you have a thing called a passport?
Ever read the ingredients on imported food?

>I will now close with solar language
>and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.

Barangus!  Mondo bazoomo!  Wox wox wox oggle grebbly nad bork bork bock
fnord egrep roff gnogin fsck zowie, ecky-THUMP!

Please post a Solar Max dictionary so we can learn to communicate.
                            -- K.
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From: [e-mail] (Richard Alan Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.butt.harp,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants... IN BED!
Date: 15 Nov 1992 21:30:46 +1100
Organization: School of Physics, University of Melbourne
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
Summary: [e-mail]
Keywords: duh

heheheh .....
nice to see Joh_Winston is getting some airplay away from sci.skeptic.
I'm still not convinced the sucker isnt a poorly programmed AI project.

Whenever I feel a little jaded (like now, when I've spent the day marking
first year exam papers.. <sob>) I wander over to sci.skeptic, and there he
is, blathering about out of body experiences, and his world famous
astral-train. That man was born with an intellectual kick-me sign tatooed
to his forehead. He should post to alt.peeves, and see how long his new-age
jabbering lasts. Those people in sci.skeptic are mighty polite to him (why
*is* that), but there's one thing you can say for him, he's reliable.

I can thoroughly recommend reading some of his posts, it's like watching a
chimp masturbating at a zoo, you feel somehow repelled, yet fascinated.

Alistair
[e-mail]




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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Need Alien Three repost  PLEASE!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 04:28:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 142

To: [e-mail]
From: homebas![e-mail]

TM|The three part Alien post that was up recently was hacked some how by my
  |server. If someone could post the third part I would appreciate it.
  `------------------------------------------------------------------------

  I'm going to re-post the entire file for the benefit of those that
  might not know what you are talking about. Hope no one minds.

                              -   -   -

    VARIETIES OF ALIEN BEINGS KNOWN TO "INTERACT" WITH HUMANS
      AND SUPPOSEDLY INVOLVED IN INFLUENCING HUMAN AFFAIRS.
                         By David House

                    ALIEN TYPE 1:  THE GREYS:

Of  this  type there are several sub-types. All  tend  to  appear
greyish in color and for this reason are referred to as "greys."

GREY  TYPE A:  This is the type most commonly referred to as  the
greys.  Also known as Zeta Reticuli from the Zeta Reticulan  star
system  (the  Bernard  star) neighboring the  Orion  area.   They
function  in a mode that is apparently military in nature with  a
rigidly   defined  social  structure  that  holds   science   and
"conquering  worlds" to be the prime movers.  They  are  normally
about 4.5 ft. tall with large heads and black "wrap around" eyes.
They  have  limited facial features, slit mouth and  no  nose  to
speak  of.   They have evolved beyond the need  for  reproductive
systems  or  digestive systems and reproduce by  cloning.   Their
genetics are partly based on insectoidal genetics. Their  science
deals  largely  with the study of other life  forms  and  genetic
engineering.   They  have supposedly had a part to  play  in  the
alteration  of human genetics over thousands of years.  It  seems
that  they may be trying to cross breed with humans in  order  to
create  a "mixture race" that would be better than either.  (I've
read that they are a dying species, that have cloned so much that
now,  with  each successive cloning, the  species  grows  weaker.
They are trying to infuse new life into their species by creating
the mixed breed.)

There  seem  to  be two main social classes.   One  is  the  more
hawkish and is more abrupt, crude and blunt.  The more  dove-like
ones  are  more  refined  and capable  of  a  more  business-like
behavior  towards  humans, and prefer to  use  more  "diplomatic"
behavior to gain control over human's.  This type of Grey is what
I  believe is being referred to as the "Orange" class  of  Greys.
They  seem to be emotionless (by human standards)  and  therefore
are  seen as cruel in their treatment of human beings.  They  are
able to take human lives without any regard for that individual.

They apparently can use certain substances of the human body  for
their  sustenance  and  therefore appear  to  be  carnivorous  in
regards  to  humans.  (I also read that they extract  fluid  from
some  part of the human brain during intense  emotional  response
[fear] and are able to use it like a recreational drug.)

It is my understanding that these greys are actually servants  to
a master race of reptilian-type aliens and are trying to  prepare
the  earth  for their arrival by gaining control over  the  earth
through  many means.  They tend to enjoy the feeling  of  freedom
they have on earth, away from their masters and would desire  the
help  of  humans in confrontations  with  the  reptilians...which
appears  to  be a consideration for the near future  (mid  90's.)
These greys have their best known bases in New Mexico and  Nevada
but are also known to have bases in many countries of the world.
GREY  TYPE B:  Tall Greys from Orion.  Usually about 7 to  8  ft.
tall (reports often exaggerate their height as being 9 to 12 ft.)
with  facial  feature somewhat similar to grey type  A  with  the
exception  of the large nose found on type B greys.  These  greys
also have technologies that allow them to perform certain actions
that appear "miraculous."

These  greys  are less viscous towards humans than type  A  greys
(but are still considered "hostile".) They tend to influence more
through  political controls and negotiated agreements with  those
in  power.  Their main bases seem to be in the Aleutian  Islands.
These are the type seen not long ago in Eastern Russia.

GREY TYPE C:  These are the shortest of the greys and tend to  be
about  3.5 ft. tall.  Their facial features are very  similar  to
the  Zeta Reticuli greys and are of the same "root race.".   They
are just as hostile to humans as the Zetas.  They are from a star
system near the shoulder of Orion called Bellatrax.
.pa
                 ALIEN TYPE 2: THE REPTILIANS:

A  genetics akin to reptiles, these are highly advanced  entities
but  viewed  as  being  of  a  negative,  hostile  or   dangerous
disposition since they regard humans as a totally inferior  race.
They  would perceive us much the way we would perceive a herd  of
cattle.   They  are carnivorous in regard to  humans.   There  is
supposedly  a  "driven"  planetoid or asteroid  inhabited  by  30
million of these lizard-folk that is to enter our solar system in
the mid 90's if the present schedule is kept.

They  consider  earth to be their own ancient outpost  and  would
expect  to have complete control of the entire planet upon  their
return.   Their  own  planet is  becoming  unable  to  adequately
support life and they need somewhere else to live.  These are the
aliens who are served by the type A greys.

.pa
                 ALIEN TYPE 3: HUMAN TYPE ALIENS

HUMAN  TYPE A: These are of a genetic base similar to  humans  of
earth.   They appear of "normal" height (5-6ft.?) and tend to  be
fair-skinned with blonde hair.  These entities have been abducted
by  the  greys or are the offspring of abductees  and  have  been
trained  by  the greys as servants.  These entities  are  totally
subservient to the greys.

HUMAN  TYPE  B:  These are aliens of similar  genetics  to  earth
humans  and also, it seems, of the humans that serve  the  greys.
These  are  from the Pleiades and are also of the  blonde,  fair-
skinned  appearance.  This type is of a genuine  highly  evolved,
spiritual,  benevolent variety and have a kinship  toward  humans
and  are the only aliens to be truly trusted by earth  humans  at
this  time. They had at one time offered to be of  assistance  to
earth  leaders in dealing with the alien situation here but  were
rebuffed and so have taken a kind of "hands off" approach for the
time  being.  These aliens are supposedly the forefather race  of
humankind.   These are apparently not on earth much at this  time
due to serious problems in the area of their home.

HUMAN  TYPE  C:  Very  little is known  about  these.   They  are
supposedly another of the highly evolved, spiritual type of great
benevolence to earth humans.  I understand that their  appearance
is  similar to other human-type aliens. They are from Sirius  and
don't  appear to be much involved with earth happenings  at  this
time  other than being concerned about the Grey  scenario.   They
could desire to be of help to humans.

There  are  other known human type aliens of  this  "more  highly
spiritually  evolved"  nature that are apparently  aware  of  the
situation  on  earth  and considering  some  possible  course  of
action.  These are from Arcturus and Vega.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] (Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mind Control of UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 04:49:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
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From: homebas!Joseph.daniels#uunet.ca
To: [e-mail]

  |Pat once had an experience of seeing a UFO that just
  |appeared as a light at night. He was able to watch the light and it
  |would respond to his thoughts to move from one place to the other
  |while he watched it for about 5 or more minutes...
  `----------------------------------------------------------------

  According to many first hand accounts like those described in
  Budd Hopkins books "Intruders" or "Misssing Time" and Ed Walters
  of "Gulf Beeze" fame, many people claim that the UFOs can read their
  thoughts and move/react to them.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Can I put you on hold?...<click> Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Groom Lake/Project Red Light
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 04:55:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 16

From: homebas![e-mail]
To: [e-mail] (Judd Christopher R.)

JCR|I was just wondering if anyone had any information about the possibility
   |of saucers flying over Groom Lake in Nellis AFB in Nevada.
   `------------------------------------------------------------------------

   There's tons of stuff but I don't have any as ASCII files.
   One of the best books on the subject would be the two by Tim Good
   "Above Top Secret" and "Alien Liason". He is a very good and well
   respected researcher that has "looked into" Government involvement
   with Extraterrestrial Aliens (or EBEs as the Government calls them.)

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Don't put Descarte before the horse.

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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Out Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 04:40:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 16

From: homebas!Joseph.daniels#uunet.ca
To: [e-mail]

JO|Dear Space People Watchers:  The people from other planets as far as
  |I have been told will give a sun a name (some of them call our
  |sun Shan) and we are considered to be the third orbit from our sun
  |unless you count Vulcan so we are the number three orbit planet of
  `-------------------------------------------------------------------

  It's my understanding that most Aliens count the planets from the
  outside-inward starting with Pluto. I guess they do it that way
  because for them it would be like passing exits on the freeway...

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Free Software Online London [phone]

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From: [e-mail] (Cpl.Flash )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 11:43:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Organization: Coventry University
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysh

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>>
>>Mabye the Authors of the FAQ could put together a PETITION for all
>>interested in this group, possibly others, to send to Pres-elect Clinton.
>>What do you all think?

I'm only a humble English guy, Interested in U.F.O's, but i would be
interested in having a go at your new President. If you want to read
a good book on U.F.O's, then try "ABOVE TOP SECRET" and "ALIEN LIASON"
which are both by Timothy Good. I was a skeptic until i read them, and
then met Mr.Good at a signing. They are well worth a look in.

                       Love to everyone in the U.S.A.!

                           Garrett

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 07:37:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 42

Subject: Flying Whatsit.
  What has a 40 foot windspan, flys and screams like  everything?  I don't
know either but they are seeing them down in Peru.
  A remote village high on the snowcapped slopes of the Andes Mountains of
Peru is being ravaged by winged creatures that ruled the skies before the
dawn of man-the flying dinosaurs know as  pterodactyls!
  Until recently, the monstrous flying reptiles, believed to have been extinct
for more than 120 million years, had attacked  only the villagers llama
herds, but there is grisly new evidence that humans are falling prey to
their savage fury.
  Over the past seven months, at least four different pterodactyls have been
seen attacking the llama herds and menacing the herders. The largest of
those is said to have a wingspan of beteeren 35 and 40 feet - about the size
of a single-engine Cessana plane
  "This entire situation simply staggers the mind", declared Department of
Interior spokesman Gustava Legula, "I have been in the village of San Pasco
and I have see the flying giants with my own eyes.  They are a creation of
the devil himself.
  These are the descendants of the flying dragons that lived in the time of
the dinosaurs.  They were the largest creature ever  to soar above the earth
before they became extinct millions and millions of years ago, and yet they
are here today in Peru, living in the caves of the mountains.  Tkhey have
almost wiped out the llama herds and now, they have also taken human lives.
 Legula explained that villagers have failed to return to their homes after
setting out in search of the flying reptiles.
  Although no bodies have been found, the tattered and blood stained remains
of their clothing have been recovered from the rugged slopes where
pterodactyls have frequently been seen.
  Villager Guillermo Bejar was tending his llama herd early one morning when
three of the prehistoric monsters swooped out of the sky and attacked him
and his animals.
  There is no warning when they attack.  They plucked my poor animals from the
ground and carried them to their death.
  Bejar, one of about a dozen villagers who has witnessed the savage attacks
barely excaped with his life as the pterodactyls carried off his llama herd.
  It is known that pterodactyls lived in this part of the world during the
Jurassic and Cretaceous periods.  Their fossils have been found not only  in
South America but in North Ameriaca as well.
  This is me (John Winston) speaking now. Did you ever hear of such a thing in
your life? The next thing they will be saying is that these things are being
seen a little ways from Malibu, Calif. Well I never---.
John Winston.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 08:23:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 33

Subject: Greys, Good or Bad?
  Some people have been wondering if these Greys are good guys or bad. Please
let me give you the information that has come my way on this subject.  It
seems that the guardians who are responsible for this part of space found
out that there was a group of people who had developed in one area of the
intellect a little too far.  The Greys has become so far developed in the
logic side of life that they didn't have any emotional side left.  They also
had a digestive system that wasn't very functional either.  It seems that
they use animal matter such as intestines, blood and what have you and
subject this to a chemical reaction to come up with something they can
obsorb.  My friend Harley Byrd calls it Bobcat Stew. It's not made out of
Bobcat but it is what a Bobcat would like to eat.
 The Guardians looked around to find a race or culture of people who were
emotional and you guess it they picked us.  We are so emotional it's
pityful.  We also have strong stomacks. If it doesn't bite us back we will
eat it.
  The next thing that happened was the Guadians opened up a network or system
so the Greys could come through and make it to us.  The Grey made a deal
with our government.  You give us technology and we'll let you experiment
with our poeple and breed with them, just give us a list of how many you are
taking and bring them back in good condition. This went along pretty good
for a while until they started taking too many people (2,000) ever so often
and not bringing some of them back. Now our government wants out of the deal
and has started the Operation Awareness in which they are going to try to
tell the truth to the public as to what is going on.
  Please don't think that this is something that I alone know about. This is
all written up in magazines like UFO Universe and the government knows all
about their operation. So I would say the Greys are not exactly bad. They
have an IQ of about 300 and are very logical.  They consider us to be very
much like one of our scientist thinks when he operates and experiments with
a rabbit. Some of the Grey are really nice people but the ones we are
dealing with are about like most of our scientists.
John Winston
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:06:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 7

According to [e-mail]:
>...and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.

Klaatu Barada Nicto!
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (parveen j seph.quintero sinaha)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 15:54:21 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 5

    Wait, why is everyone talking as if Bill Clinton doesnt know
about the coverup?  Has no one been paying attention to the powers
higher than MJ-12?  Bill Clinton is a North American member of the
Trilateralist Commision (along with George Bush, and quite a few others),
and *must* know about the aliens...
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12718 alt.alien.visitors:11063 sci.skeptic:34159
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:01:30 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to [e-mail]:
>>...and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.
>
>Klaatu Barada Nicto!

Eeeeeeeeeeee-yakaboo

What I think is amazing is that the alien language can be written in
English text without any diacriticals or anything fancy.  For BEMs I would
expect at least something along the lines of:

    A!%lo^a pBxt ZZy`vit fmN!g

C Frog
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Kuhn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 20:50:10 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 62

From: Rob Farquhar, temp. using this account.
    It's amazing how little you people really know about what you're talking ab
out.  this is not arrogance, but experience talking.  I am a scientist/astronom
er as well as a contactee.  First of all, let me tell you a little about stars.
  Don't let anybody tell you that the aliens come from the Pleidaes cluster. Th
ose stars are far to young.  They just emerged from the nebula a few million ye
ars ago, and they're too young, and too close together for planets to form.
  The same goes for stars like Sirius and Rigel, except that they're too big an
d too hot.
  Dwarf stars like Barnard's star are too small and too cold, and their "life z
ones"(the boundaries within which a livable planet can form) are too near their
 surfaces.
  The best stars to find life around are yellow main sequence stars like our ow
n sun- not too hot, not too cold, not too prone to flares. There are several st
ars within the nearest 100 light years that fit this description. They are:
  ALPHA CENTAURI A
  ALPHA CENTAURI B
  EPSILON ERIDANI
  61 CYGNI A
  61 CYGNI B
  EPSILON INDI
  TAU CETI
  NU CASSIOPEA
  PHI ORIONI
  BETA TRIANGULUM AUSTRALE
  ALPHA HYDRI
  GAMMA VIRGONIS
  ALPHA CIRCINUS
 BETA CAPRICORNI.
I won't tell you which of these has life around it, that would be cheating.
But I know.  You see, I was "picked up" for the first time several years ago, a
nd taken to a small world one-eighth of the way around the galaxy. It is inhabi
ted by the Darvosians, the "little grey men" of myth and legend.  They are non-
hostile, and very interested in the development of other species. They were mos
t cooperative and instructing (by the way, faster-than-light travel makes human
s nauseous).  They informed me of the existence of the twelve starfaring races
of the galaxy (those species which have developed ftl travel. They include:
  The Abercan, a reptilian race reminiscent of hooded cobras
  The Darvosians, grey humanoids descended from (nobody knows)
  The Kaheew, a catlike warrior race kind of like Niven's fictional KZIN
  The N'gusat-ahh, bovine centaurlike creatures
  The Farhipti, other grey beings descended from sharks
  The Skark, bigfoot/wookie looking docile critters
  The Cante'la, upright walking versions of trilobites
  The Anarhooksat, telekinetic squidlike beasts that must carry water with them
       in their ships
  The Roorpa, pteranodon-like gliders
  The Xrxquim, isolationist humanoids with greatly enlarged craniums
  The Hurrparansilar, elaphantine creatures, and
  The Banarflista, ten-legged mollusks with weapon legs, eating legs, and
       walking legs

  There are many other non-starfaring intelligent races, including ours. I have
 maps of many systems (hand-drawn duplicates of hard copy), The locations of th
e races, the map of the Darvosian system, and of Darvos itself.
   More: all humans DID evolve from the same ancestral race. None are of extra-
terrestrial origin.  The Kelts, not the Aryans, are the most-contacted people.
(I don't know why). The aliens were most certainly not involved with the constr
uction of the pyramids or other ancient artifacts. We didn't need help.
   More to come.  Now I have to go to the core, to monitor the explosion.
   Don't worry. you've got 20,000 years.
   R.A.F. II (The sequel)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!fub!tpki.toppoint.de!galki.toppoint.de!ulrich
From: [e-mail] (Ulrich Gall)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: *SUMMARY: Please help me! _What_ was that? PLEASE READ!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 14:53:11 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: private UUCP site, Kiel, Germany
Lines: 101




Dear a.a.v readers,




first of all, I would like to apologize to everyone who read my original
posting about the Russian UFO.

THE WHOLE STORY IS A LIE. I have never been in Russia in all my life.
-------------------------

I posted this to find out how people react and whether people would believe
a story like this. I DID NOT DO THIS TO MAKE FUN OF ANYONE. I do believe
that it is very well possible that we have had contact with aliens.

I realize that many of you are not really impressed to say the least.

My main concern is that, after now reading that it was all fake, all those
people who offered to help me won't believe the next guy who posts a story
which is true. So please, KEEP ON BELIEVING THOSE PEOPLE SERIOUSLY POSTING
TO THIS GROUP.

I was very impressed by the help so many people offered, and I really felt
bad about them offering their help to someone who lied to them. I thank
all of you who did answer to my posting.

I got a total of 5 replies, the two follow-ups and a phone call from a guy
from Germany.

Here is what they told me:
--------------------------

1) One guy guessed it was a Russian classified vertical takeoff aircraft.

2) Two of them wanted to know more about the "sample", where it was now etc.

> ... you might describe these more fully.  What do they weigh?  What
> size?  What shape?  Greyish, as in dark or light grey?  Dull or
> bright?  Weathered, machined?

[I was actually describing a chunk of Silicon I took from an aluminum plant.
It is really strange stuff - very hard, but still metal-like. I was going to
give some more hints after reading some of the followups (like "it's got a
resistance of 500 Ohms from one end to the other"), but I didn't want to lie
to you any further.

3) One concern also mentiuoned was about preserving what I found. This is of
course very important, and I would recommend everyone hiding A PART of
something alien they found right away and not even tell anyone about it until
the time has come.

4) Two people mentioned that in Russia, UFOlogy has been taken much more
seriously than in the West.

5) One advice I got that makes sense was TO TAKE SOME SOIL OF AN ENCOUNTER
SIGHT to check for radiation and bacteria.

6) A Special thanks to Garrett for this offer (A follow-up, I hope you don't mind
me reposting your adress.):

> Send a sample of that rock to me, and we will to some FTICR/MS, Xray
> fluoresence and other tests on it and see what it is made of:
>
>              Dr. Garrett Van Cleef
>              Laser Spectroscopy Facility
>              Department of Chemistry
>              Box 234
>              The Ohio State University
>                 Columbus, OH 43210

7) The guy who called me recommended a german book about all this and gave
me the adress of a german UFO organization. A special thanks to you.

-----
Generally, I was surprised that everyone believed me. Please keep this up! I
am confident that anyone who experinced something like this can post and
people will help him.


Of course, almost everyone wanted more info. For your amusement, here is what
I was planning on telling them:
                              ____   ____   ____
The clouds looked like this:-(____)-(____)-(____)-. The sound was 1-2Hz.
Of course this was supposed to match the "Pulser" aircraft mentioned in the
FAQ.
The sample was Silicon (see above).
The picture disappeared when I had them developed (MIBs?)
I picked Russia because it makes it harder to check if it really happened.

Again, sorry about all of this,
       hoping that some of what I found was interesting for you,

                Ulrich



Ulrich B. Gall, Seebrooksberg 2, W-2300 Klausdorf, Germany
Tel.: [phone], EMail: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12720 alt.alien.visitors:11066
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 17:08:05 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 56


Subject: Lone Pine Pyramid.
Part 3.
  Here is some more information that was sent to me by letter about the
storehouse; The storehouse is buried under the rocks of the Alabama Hillls
west of town (probubly about 50 feet of rock cover the building.)
  The is Mrs. Curtis talking; On finding this I was made to know that it is
for the New Age and not for this greedy, evil generation.  Hence not over a
half dozen people in this town know of its existence. Over 100 people  have
stood on the apex of the storehouse.  I have told only the Children of Light
and of the New Age about it, and it will be a favor to me if you do not
reveal the fact of its existenc to any but a New Age person.
  Now then concerning it I was given the revelation about it one night feeling
the impulse to sit up in bed and write on the pad I kept under my pillow.  I
was given explicit directions as where to find it, and with a few others who
were visiting me at the time, did locate it. Power that was invested in its
building still issues from the apex, or from the level ground that covers
the apex. It can be felt travel up thru the body and in some cases charges
the body anew. Not all feel it that strong, but almost all feel it to some
extent.
  This is me (John Winston) talking now. After getting the information from
Mrs. Clurtis I made a telephone call over to their house.  Mr. Curtis said
that his wife had just died a few days before that time. I prevailed on him
to show me the site and he told me to come on over.
  I showed up and went into the back yard to check out the alter that was
supposed to have energy coming from it.  When I came back to Mr. Curtis I
told him that his wife's spirit was still in the back yard.  He then agreed
with me and said that he knew that his wife was still in the area.
  Mr. Curtis showed me out to the site. I later came back to the area of the
pyramid and put up some information in a can.  I also put some plastic
cement (like concrete) on the side of a large rodck showing figures that are
from Lemuria that were found in a book by Col Churchword or Churchward.
  I feel that the pyramid will be opened about 2,008 or when ever we progress
to the point where we won't just take the items inside the storehouse and
sell them.
  I will be glad to tell or show anyone who is interested in the pyramid where
it is as long as they can prove to me that they are part of the group that
built it or they are a Worker of Light.  I'll know if they can be trusted.
John  Winston
End Part 3.
that his wife's spirit 3wass cw


2meEE
,
UPA

Vr8PU$,V$ef
9cJK,%x{x3xRx
kxxx_    xExUxcxex
Vr8PU$,V$ef

9cJK,<

0Roman 10cpiconcrete) on thws isde of a large rodckc showing figures that
are from Lemuria. that were found in a boook by
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!van-bc!cs.ubc.ca!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 05:41:37 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 40

[e-mail] (The Magician) writes:

>
>
> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>
> >Well, that's really silly.  Why would anyone in their right mind carve faces
> >in the side of a mountain??
>
> To confuse the hell out of anyone who see's it?
> Some strange vortex effect of the martian wind (a la crop circles)?
> Someone got there before us ?
> Mass electronic phycosis/hysteria ?
>
> Who can say !
>
> Tim.
> [e-mail]
> Dreams fade, but nightmares live forever.

Well to be perfectly honest, the question as why somebody would carve
faces in mountains should not be that difficult to answer considering the
we carved the faces of some presidents into a mountain side. Now it is
not that I'm saying that we are looking at the face of some Martain
President, or do we.
I think that the main question is are we looking at a face or are we
seeing something we wish to see. To me , after looking at some pictures,
unfortunately in a book, I we tend to believe that the image is to clear
to be explained as a halucination or a projection of our desire to hook
up with an alien civilisation.
Personally I would like to obtain some better data on the subject, if
somebody out there could get me just that I would be most happy.

Greetings [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Need Alien Three repost  PLEASE!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 06:31:24 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 12

[e-mail] writes:

> The three part Alien post that was up recently was hacked some how by my
> server. If someone could post the third part I would appreciate it.

Yes I would like that to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Visits etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 07:11:29 PST
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 26

Seems there is a lot of talk going regarding the indentity of that what
is unindentified. Most people somehow have the idea that all form of live
would answer to the laws of the manifest order (explicate). A feeling
which keeps creeping up in my mind, is that many, commonly regarded as
unreasonable observations, should be seen in the context of, for example,
Shambalah a kingdom which can be visited by those who are ready for it.
Recently I read that accoording to the current Dalai Lama, who by the way
is a very educated person, Shambalah is a fact. Now the idea of a hidden
kingdom, somewhere on this Earth is evidently becoming increasingly
unlikely. There are however some striking similaritis between the tales
of those who were ready, reached the required level of spirituality, to
visit the hidden kingdom, and those who for some reason or the other were
selected for a close encounter with UFO's. The question is now whether it
is reasonable to supose that, this readiness, is in fact  the level to
which the person is prone to halucinations, or to which the person
reached an awareness wich allows her/him to interact whithin a higher
actuality.
I would be very interested in the opinions concerning these questions
are.
Greetings [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!magney
From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants... IN BED!
Date: 15 Nov 1992 19:48:44 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: scratchy.caltech.edu
Originator: magney@scratchy

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Richard Alan Brown) writes:
> I'm still not convinced the sucker isnt a poorly programmed AI project.
>
I think he's a human being that's just having us on.

>                  Those people in sci.skeptic are mighty polite to him
(why
> *is* that), but there's one thing you can say for him, he's reliable.
>
I don't know about anyone else in sci.skeptic, but I personally feel he's
doing no harm.

> I can thoroughly recommend reading some of his posts, it's like watching
a
> chimp masturbating at a zoo, you feel somehow repelled, yet fascinated.
>
Doesn't repel me, really.  It's just interesting seeing the sort of thing
human beings will claim to believe.  (I still think he's having us on.)

--
| Michael Agney          | "Well, if we were to build a   |
|                        |           giant badger..."     |
|                        |    - Monty Python and the      |
| [e-mail] |      search for the Holy Grail |
--
| Michael Agney          | "Well, if we were to build a   |
|                        |           giant badger..."     |
|                        |    - Monty Python and the      |
| [e-mail] |      search for the Holy Grail |
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!magney
From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Date: 15 Nov 1992 19:53:14 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: scratchy.caltech.edu
Originator: magney@scratchy

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (parveen j
seph.quintero sinaha) writes:
> higher than MJ-12?  Bill Clinton is a North American member of the
> Trilateralist Commision (along with George Bush, and quite a few
others),
> and *must* know about the aliens...

"Trilateralist Commission"?  Hey, this sounds an awful lot like the
Tripartite that Lee Correy talks about in his book "Manna".  Conspiracy
buffs should read "Manna" solely for the description of the Tripartite.
It's an economic conspiracy consisting of the NorthAmerican-European
powers that I almost find believable.

--
| Michael Agney          | "Well, if we were to build a   |
|                        |           giant badger..."     |
|                        |    - Monty Python and the      |
| [e-mail] |      search for the Holy Grail |
--
| Michael Agney          | "Well, if we were to build a   |
|                        |           giant badger..."     |
|                        |    - Monty Python and the      |
| [e-mail] |      search for the Holy Grail |
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.centerline.com!noc.near.net!news.Brown.EDU!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:11:09 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney) writes:
>
>"Trilateralist Commission"?  Hey, this sounds an awful lot like the
>Tripartite that Lee Correy talks about in his book "Manna".  Conspiracy
>buffs should read "Manna" solely for the description of the Tripartite.
>It's an economic conspiracy consisting of the NorthAmerican-European
>powers that I almost find believable.

Actually, some of the best information about the Bilderburgers, the Council
on Foriegn Relations (CFR), the Trilateralists Commission, and the Committee
of 300 can be found in the following books:

The Committee of 300        Dr. John Coleman (There are two different
versions being printed, one by the Greens, and one is Joseph Publishing.)

The Cosmic Conspiracy         Stan Deyo (ex-patriat FBI agent and AirForce
Accadamy cadet)

Behold a Pale Horse        Bill Cooper    (Dubious author perhaps, but
he has done a lot of home work, no matter what you think of his UFO claims.)


If you don't know something of the above groups, you should.
Jeff-


Xref: icaen alt.folklore.science:4001 alt.alien.visitors:11073 alt.fan.douglas-adams:4131
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.alien.visitors,alt.fan.douglas-adams
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!psuvax1!uxa.ecn.bgu.edu!garrot.DMI.USherb.CA!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!news.ucs.mun.ca!cs.mun.ca!irma.cs.mun.ca!kirsten
From: [e-mail] (Kirsten Starcher)
Subject: Re: Blue Lint from the Dryer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NNTP server account)
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 16:17:36 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Taed Nelson) writes:
>|> It seems that whenever I wash and then dry my clothes that the "lint" (AKA
>|>   "fluff") that gets caught in the "lint trap" is _always_ some shade of blue.
>Now, _anyone_ with a certain level of education (i.e. who has read Douglas
>Adam's Hitch-hiker trilogy) would now, and be able to recognize this as the
>first trials of interstellar contact from the super-intelligent shade of blue
>of the planet - eh - eh - (What's the name again folks?).

I don't think it says what the planet is, but the color is known as a
Hooloovoo...


.............................................................................
.Kirsten Starcher...............................Your breath is steaming up...
[e-mail].........................my contact lenses............
[e-mail]...................................................
.................Memorial University, St. John's, Newfoundland...............
...This posting brought to you by the letters f, y, v, and the number i......
.............................................................................
Xref: icaen soc.culture.new-zealand:4673 alt.alien.visitors:11074
Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nwnexus!markmc
From: [e-mail] (Mark McWiggins)
Subject: NZ UFO reports in mainstream press, 1989?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Security Officer)
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. [phone]
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:27:27 GMT
Lines: 11

An acquaintance mentioned something about a bizarre series of UFO
reports coming out of New Zealand in 1989, allegedly including guys
wearing "USAF" jumpsuits getting out of a crash-landed craft.

Does this ring a bell for anyone? If so, could you post a summary and/or
pointers to the relevant press accounts?

Thanks in advance.
--
Mark McWiggins        Hermes & Associates        [phone] (voice)
[e-mail]    Box 31356, Seattle WA 98103-1356  [phone] (fax)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!olivea!news.bbn.com!ulowell!woods.ulowell.edu!lewish
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:18:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News manager - ulowell)
Organization: University of Lowell
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Hail Eris) writes:
> |>
> |> I've got a hunch there is more than one face and that the Mars observer will
> |> verify that and the existence of other artifacts.
> |>
>
> Well, that's really silly.  Why would anyone in their right mind carve faces
> in the side of a mountain??
>
> bill
>
> --
>
>      Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
>      [e-mail]         |  This space would be left intentionally blank
>                               |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

We do. Why not them ? (If it is them, and i'm not saying it is!)

Henry Lewis
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: BeamShip Pictures (Billy Meir) available
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 04:14:04 GMT
Lines: 76

These are the descriptions from the Ed Billy Meir pictures I have posted to
alt.binaries.pictures.misc.

If you have a jpeg viewer, you can view these on any type of computer.
If you don't have a jpeg viewer, read the FAQ in above group, or a.b.p or
a.b.p.utilities for DOS, Mac, and X viewers, and Windows too.

I have a jpeg viewer for the Mac, and if you need it you can get it from
sumex-aim.stanford.edu  or if you have not ftp access, mail me and i will
post it where everyone can find it.

If you know more about these picture, like what J. Vallee has to say about them
and if he has presented evidence they are fake, etc. please post that information.
I for one, after extensive reading, and talking with Wendle Stevens, Bob Brown,
and Michael Lindemann, feel they are real pictures of real IFO's...

I don't mind hearing your opinion, but please be polite, and base it on something
other than, "Since UFO's don't exist, they can't be true photos".

thanks,

jeff-


This is a picture of Edward Billy Mier's UFO picture of a BeamShip
behind a tree, in front of the sun. This picture could not be a double
exposure, and tests done at Nasa and JPL by Bob Oechler indicate it
is not a trick photo by any means known...

It was taken by a poor, one-armed farmer in Switzerland, in 1976
or so. Let it suffice to say, long before desk-top image processing
was available to anyone.

Make up your own mind, but keep this in mind about this particular
shot:

The ship is behind the tree, it is infront of the sun. The object
in the photo has to be the size it appears to be, based on the
tests done at JPL, so it is unlikely that a one-armed person could
be suspending 15ft wide models above trees and taking pictures of them.

This shot is from the book, Contact from the Pleiades, and I do
recommend taking a look at it. Genesis III Publishing, Munds Park, AZ.

***********************************************************
This is the famous "wood-pile" shot. I think this is one of the better
pictures, so much green grass and beauty in it. There are several variations
in the beamships depicted here, one more fact that makes it more unlikely
that these shots could be faked. He would have to hide 5 different large
models somewhere accessable, and be able to move them to the different
locations depicted here.

An interesting annectdote related to this is that he owned only an motor
scooter when these shots were taken...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a blowup at about 3000% of one of the beamships. It has been
determiced by laser infretometry (sp) that the light reflected off the
bottom in all of these shots is that of the grass below, that there is
noticable "bluing" from the distance between the object and the camera,
water vapor and mist, etc.

Thus, if they were faked, it would be beyond most photo expert's ability
to do it, and Billy Mier is no photo expert. The camera used is a simple
35mm, I don't think it is an SLR even, since most SLR's are too big for
him to opperate with only one hand...

+++++------------------**************************************
This is a shot of a Swiss AF jet making a pass by the beamship. The
jet made over a dozen passes, and this was recorded by audio tape.
The beamship finally just blinked-out, and was gone!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a nice shot of a variation 5 beamship in the winter,
with snow on the mountains. Nice close proximity.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12722 alt.alien.visitors:11077 sci.skeptic:34176
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:24:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 10

According to [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog):
>For BEMs I would expect at least something along the lines of:
>
>    A!%lo^a pBxt ZZy`vit fmN!g
>

Hey!  Smile when you say that!
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Xref: icaen alt.folklore.science:4004 alt.alien.visitors:11078 alt.fan.douglas-adams:4132 alt.magnus.and.ketil:31
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.alien.visitors,alt.fan.douglas-adams,alt.magnus.and.ketil
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!alf.uib.no!ketil
From: [e-mail] (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: Blue Lint from the Dryer
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Sun, 15 Nov 92 02:19:35 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:05:24
Lines: 28


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Taed Nelson) writes:
    |> It seems that whenever I wash and then dry my clothes that the "lint" (AKA
    |>   "fluff") that gets caught in the "lint trap" is _always_ some shade of blue.
    |>   I've seen very light blue (nearly white) and very dark blue.
    [...]
    |> Does anyone have any idea what is going one here?  I've wondered about this
    |>   weird thing for years...

>>>>> On Sun, 15 Nov 92 02:19:35 GMT, [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund) said:

    BT> Now, _anyone_ with a certain level of education (i.e. who
    BT> has read Douglas Adam's Hitch-hiker trilogy) would now,
    BT> and be able to recognize this as the first trials of
    BT> interstellar contact from the super-intelligent shade of
    BT> blue of the planet - eh - eh - (What's the name again
    BT> folks?).

Ah, didn't you know super-intelligent colors are no longer the
fashion?  Now it's smart *drugs*!

I wonder how they communicate, I spent half of last evening talking to
our medicine locker, but didn't get much of a response, I'm afraid.
Has anyone actually made contact with this rare and wonderful species?

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  [e-mail] =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Date: 16 Nov 1992 04:49:32 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

>> |> I've got a hunch there is more than one face and that the Mars observer will
>> |> verify that and the existence of other artifacts.
>> Well, that's really silly.  Why would anyone in their right mind carve faces
>> in the side of a mountain??

>We do. Why not them ? (If it is them, and i'm not saying it is!)

Mt. Rushmore (and Crazy Horse) are insignificant in size compared to the
Mars Structure.  In fact, this thing would only be observable from the
air, probably (since it *does* seem to be looking outward).  Reminds me
of those Indian art things in NEw Mexico (or wherever).  Of course, its
more likely that the thing is just a natural artifact.

keith

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Keith M. Skar)
Subject: Info Needed
Sender: [e-mail] (News login)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 05:31:18 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu
Organization: Minot State University -- Minot, ND.
Lines: 5

A friend of mine would like to find out all he can about
Area 51....Is there a FAQ or a ftp site for this newsgroup.
Or can anybody send me some Info...

Thanks
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!mporter
From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter)
Subject: Re: Info Needed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 10:32:09 GMT
Lines: 56

[e-mail] (Keith M. Skar) writes:

>A friend of mine would like to find out all he can about
>Area 51....Is there a FAQ or a ftp site for this newsgroup.
>Or can anybody send me some Info...

>Thanks

Well, good luck to your friend... The bastards at Area 51 have taken
themselves off the net:

From [e-mail] Mon Nov 16 03:28:25 1992
Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1)
    id AA18666; Mon, 16 Nov 92 03:28:22 MST
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver.  The University has neither control over nor
    responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users.
Received: by uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com; id AA13057; Mon, 16 Nov 92 02:26:50 -0800
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 02:26:50 -0800
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: ftpmail service on uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: your ftpmail request has been received
X-Complaints-To: [e-mail]
X-Service-Address: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
Status: R

We processed the following input from your mail message:

    connect ftp.area51.mil
    chdir /pub
    dir
    quit

Your ftpmail request could not be accepted due to the
error shown below:

  -- Ftpmail Submission Transcript --
<<< connect ftp.area51.mil
>>> Connect to ftp.area51.mil as anonymous with ftpmail/[e-mail]
<<< chdir /pub
>>> Will chdir to </pub> before I do anything else
<<< dir
>>> list directory
<<< quit
>>> Done - rest of message will be ignored
>>> checking security of host `ftp.area51.mil'
>>> HOST IS NOT REGISTERED WITH THE DOMAIN NAME SERVICE
  -- End Of Ftpmail Transcript --

Seriously, there is a FAQ (and a very good one) for the group, and it lists
several ftp sites, and other archival sources of information.


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!ccdarg
From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:03:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Stephen Kuhn) writes:
> From: Rob Farquhar, temp. using this account.

>[Lots of geological terms terms slightly altered]

1/10 Try harder.


--

Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]
Xref: icaen soc.culture.new-zealand:4675 alt.alien.visitors:11083
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From: [e-mail] (Marsha Woodbury )
Subject: Re: NZ UFO reports in mainstream press, 1989?
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:43:41 GMT
Lines: 21

[e-mail] (Mark McWiggins) writes:

>An acquaintance mentioned something about a bizarre series of UFO
>reports coming out of New Zealand in 1989, allegedly including guys

It may not be widely known outside of New Zealand, but certainly
within....There are many, many instances of UFO sightings in
New Zealand, and a high percentage of them are around Blenheim.
The Marlborough Express files are replete with the stories of
possible sightings.

Not only that, Blenheim is on "the grid" in a book (I don't
remember the title)--the book says the high proportion of
UFO sightings are due to where blenheim is (I always wondered
why God put it there!)--I guess ET, etc. will make contact
with humnakind in Blenheim, so get ready DownUnder!!
.....
--
Marsha Woodbury   [e-mail]
A simile is like a metaphor.
University of Illinois, Middle of Nowhere
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!coventry!esi102
From: [e-mail] (The Magician)
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Coventry University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:50:36 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Flying Whatsit.
>  What has a 40 foot windspan, flys and screams like  everything?  I don't
>know either but they are seeing them down in Peru.

Hmmm...............
This stikes me as the kind of story you would see in the Sport (an english
news/toilet-paper and or comic according to which industry you want to insult.

Where exactly did this story come from ?

>  This is me (John Winston) speaking now. Did you ever hear of such a thing in
>your life? The next thing they will be saying is that these things are being
>seen a little ways from Malibu, Calif. Well I never---.
>John Winston.

Thats what i thought.. next thing we know they'll be selling free range
Tranasourus Rex eggs (sp?).

Tim.
[e-mail]
Dreams fade, but nightmares last forever.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12726 alt.alien.visitors:11085
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 06:46:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Pyramid Workers: It seems that my computer has the dribbles again.
Please disregard any information that comes through after my name.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12727 alt.alien.visitors:11086 sci.skeptic:34197
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Meyer)
Subject: Re: Space Craft From Other Plants
Organization: TI DSEG, Spring Creek, Plano, Tx.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Thu, 12 Nov 92 21:43:56 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7
Sender: [e-mail] (Mark Meyer)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:56:31 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> Kelvin Rowe says his space friends don't refer to planets by names
> but by their orbit.

    Gee, that must get awfully confusing, umpteen thousand planets
in the galaxy, all called "Elliptical".

--
Mark Meyer                                               | [e-mail] |
Texas Instruments, Inc.                                  +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
  "They say history repeats itself.  But then again, they've said that before."
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Races?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 07:21:09 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 15

Dear Just Wondering: Already this sounds like an Ann Landers article
out of the paper. Your question is a very difficult one to answer. Once
I was talking to the grand nephew of John Hopkins who had the name of
John Hopkins also. He was a millionair and lived in Berkeley, Calif.
in a mansion.  He used his home as a place to hold meetings for people
who believed in UFOs. While I was talking to him he made the statement
that Mr. Winston if you plan to understand the UFO  phenomena you will
have to learn that you have lived before and who you have been before.
Since that time I believe I have learned who I have been before and I
think I understand the UFO phenomena to some degree. The answer to your
question is that we have been on other planets before. We volunteer to
come here to develope ourselves. The people on other planets know that
we lived before with them.  They come here to watch our developement
and sometime help out when it is needed.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12728 alt.alien.visitors:11088 sci.skeptic:34198
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 07:01:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear People: Here it is Monday morning and it appears that I have a
new set of flamers. Thank you for your support. It's very heart warming.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12729 alt.alien.visitors:11089 sci.skeptic:34199
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 08:49:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48

Subject: Astral Projection.
  I have had some requests to explain how astral projection is done so here
goes;  Well now that we've got this far you should be able to do, !. Send
and receive thoughts. 2. Seal the aura (we haven't covered that one yet) and
3. Call a flying saucer.  If you haven't accomplished these things yet it
may take a while, say 10 or 20 years. Some people are born with these
abilities and can do them without being taught, other people can do them
with  a little bit of instruction, others take quite a while to learn and
the last type of people are for sure they'll never learn and they usually
are right.
  Your usually accomplish what you put your mind to do.  Lately there has been
a lot of information about out of the body experiences. That is where you
are being operated on and while under anesthesia, are able to leave their
physical body and float up to the ceiling, looking back on your body while
the operation is being done.  After the anesthesia dies off then you return
to your body.  fter you return  to your body and wake up in your physical
body you are able to tell everybody what was going on during the operation
even though you had your eyes closed.
  In other cases people lay down to sleep and just before going to sleep leave
their physical body and float into the other room and see things, then
return.
  Part of my training was to learn how to do astral projetion. To do this you
relax in a chair, or bed or in the lotus posture, if your studying Yoga.
Then let yourself go into sort of a trance.  You let you astral or spiritual
body (your mind)leave your body and go to anywhere you might want to go.
Your astral body is connected to your physical body by what is called the
silver cord. Its sort of a thin piece of nearly invisible material that
stretches out between your physical body and your astral body.  This all is
just a way of explaining it and it can be seen by a person with clairvoyant
vision.  One of my teachers could go all the way to Venus by astral
projection.
  Some people say that you should be careful that no one moves you while your
on an astral journey because it will kill you if they break the silver cord
but I've never been killed yet. I just wake up if someone shakes me.  Some
people say you should have a teacher or Guru to accompany you on your trips
but I could never seem to get all that organized so I just went anyway.
After you get so far in all this business you'll find that the only real
Guru is your higher self and if you can understand that little statement
your pretty far advanced anyway.
  When you first start all of this its nomal to have what is calld a snap
back.  That is when you just leave your body and are going pretty good, then
realize what your doing, get afraid and you mind will snap back into your
body.  Sometimes your astral body comes back into you physical body and
doesn't get aligned just right and you won't feel exactly right (sort of a
headache).  All you have to do in a case like that is to go back into a
regular sleep for at least 5 minutes and you'll be feeling OK.
End Part 1.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!van-bc!cs.ubc.ca!destroyer!gumby!yale!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!lobster!dutcher
From: [e-mail] (Dave Dutcher)
Subject: Re: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lobster.micro.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis: Under Grad Workstation Lab.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:02:16 GMT
Lines: 13

In <[e-mail]> Stephen Kuhn <[e-mail]> writes:

>From: Rob Farquhar, temp. using this account.

<Alot of goofy stuff deleted>

>t cooperative and instructing (by the way, faster-than-light travel makes human
>s nauseous).  They informed me of the existence of the twelve starfaring race

Hmm I'll have to remeber some dramamine next time I cross an interstellar
void.  What was it like traveleing faster then light?  Must have been some
funky time dialation going on.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12734 alt.alien.visitors:11091 sci.skeptic:34204
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <roelle.721939012@uars_mag>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:36:52 GMT
Lines: 20

[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Astral Projection.
>  I have had some requests to explain how astral projection is done so here
>goes;  Well now that we've got this far you should be able to do, !. Send
>and receive thoughts. 2. Seal the aura (we haven't covered that one yet) and
>3. Call a flying saucer.  If you haven't accomplished these things yet it
    **** * ****** ******

Call a flying saucer as in summons, or just for a chat?

I for one want to here more about it.  Hailing a saucer for the
airport would certainly impress the boss more than just catching an
ordinary old taxi cab.  Sure, we could just skip the airplane thing,
but I don't want to seem pretentious.

Curt Roelle

>End Part 1.
>John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12735 alt.alien.visitors:11092 sci.skeptic:34206
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From: [e-mail] (Don McCoy)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Service)
Nntp-Posting-Host: pecan.cns.udel.edu
Organization: Applied Physics: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:18:55 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: Here it is Monday morning and it appears that I have a
>new set of flamers. Thank you for your support. It's very heart warming.
>John Winston.

John,
    They'll come and they'll go, but they'll never keep up
with *you*!  :)   Have a good week.

..don...

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From: [e-mail] (Lawrence C Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:09:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.
Lines: 10
Nntp-Posting-Host: glinda

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Space People Watchers:  [...] Adona Vasu Baragus.

My, GOD, can't someone HELP this man?
Don't we have chemicals for this sort of thing?

Larry Smith ([e-mail])  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want,
it is the freedom to do whatever we are able.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12737 alt.alien.visitors:11094 sci.skeptic:34209
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From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:20:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Lines: 21
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear Space People Watchers:  The people from other planets as far as
>I have been told will give a sun a name (some of them call our
>sun Shan) and we are considered to be the third orbit from our sun
>unless you count Vulcan so we are the number three orbit planet of
>the sun Shan, except they don't use the same words for your numbers.
>John Winston. The people in our solar system use a inter planetary
>language called Solar Max. It's  sort of the same way we use Latin
                 ^^^^^^^^^ We also thought this was a good name for a satelite.
>as an international language. I will now close with solar language
>and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The rhythm of this sounds a lot like what Michael Renny had his earthly
    girlfriend say to Gort the 'Police Robot' to keep it from destroying the
    earth in, "THE DAY the EARTH STOOD STILL".
                                 Adona Vasu BOGUS
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!status!jonc
Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NZ UFO reports in mainstream press, 1989?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Jon Clarke)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 07:34:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Z*NET Global News Gateway in Parnell New Zealand.
Lines: 47

[e-mail] (Marsha Woodbury ) writes:

> Not only that, Blenheim is on "the grid" in a book (I don't
> remember the title)--the book says the high proportion of
> UFO sightings are due to where blenheim is (I always wondered
> why God put it there!)--I guess ET, etc. will make contact
> with humnakind in Blenheim, so get ready DownUnder!!

 Marsha,
 I have spent ten years of my life in Blenheim, or should I say I
 was sentenced to tens years in Marlborough (grin).

 I joined the RNZAF (Kiwi Airforce) straight from school and then
 spent my service career at Woodbourne just out of Blenheim.

 Apart from the Kiakoura sightings (some 2hours drive SOUTH of
 Blenheim) in the late 70's there has been no more sightings
 than those elsewhere worldwide.

 Blenheim and indeed the south island does have its form of
 "Wildfire" (sheet lightening on a clear night) and this has
 been confused with sightings for years.

 The Marlborough Excuse (Express) has made mention of this on
 many ocassions.

 The last major sighting was in 1983 when an object low on the
 horizon apeared to sit still and change colour. Many people
 in Marlborough and Wellington saw this sight, and it was even
 discussed on 2ZE the local radio station.  The object was a
 star called (Sorry for the spelling) "Canopis" and it did look
 very nice, and very much like ET's craft (grin).

 I am still not convinced there is more UFO activity in Blenheim
 or Marlborough than elsewhere. The refernce to Cathey's book is
 a red herring IMHO.

 Now were you to talk about Longburn and the their experiments
 (in the 60's) I would agree with you as would many locals.


  Jon  Clarke                                        Z*NET Pacific
  ================================================================
  Phone [phone]  GEnie   : J.CLARKE6      CI$ : 75300,1642
  Fax   [phone]  Hexagon : HSBC NZ EBD    IFNA: 3:772/105
  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  "The problem is between the chair and the Keyboard"  JimT NCR'91
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens.Part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 12:26:14 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: alt
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Earth People: My comment on the information given is the same
as Mr. Spok of Star Trek---very interesting.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UniversalTranslator Inc
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 17 Nov 92 11:29:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 8

According to John_-_Winston@cup,portal.com
>....and  say goodbye and may God be with you.Adona Vasu Baragus

[e-mail] 15 Nov 92 17:06:46 GMT (Chip Salzenburg) responds-
>>Klaatu Baruda Nicto!

       (c)?

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!pacbell.com!sgiblab!swrinde!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis!stone
From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
Message-ID: <stone.721942258@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:30:58 GMT
Lines: 11

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear Big Foot Lovers: I have decided to change the subject we are
>talking about to Monsters and Etc. This will be about unusal animals
>and beings that are not normally talked about.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unlike yourself, eh, Johnny?...

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: *SUMMARY: Please help me! _What_ was that? PLEASE READ!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:54:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 135

In a field fraut with misinformation and less-than-legal govt.
activities, I find this fraudulent post of yours
reprehensible.

You could either be telling the truth OR you ar a
misinformation agent who is telling the truth or you are lying
or an agent and lying.

No matter....I will ...

    1) Ignore all your postings whether information or
       request

    2) I will place you in my kill file so I will never have
    to waste time with you again

    3) I adjure all other readers to consider the above
    actions against your posting.

This is a free country...yu have the right to BS...and I have
the obligation to delete your material unread.


Len

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ulrich Gall) writes:
>
>
>
>
>Dear a.a.v readers,
>
>
>
>
>first of all, I would like to apologize to everyone who read my original
>posting about the Russian UFO.
>
>THE WHOLE STORY IS A LIE. I have never been in Russia in all my life.
>-------------------------
>
>I posted this to find out how people react and whether people would believe
>a story like this. I DID NOT DO THIS TO MAKE FUN OF ANYONE. I do believe
>that it is very well possible that we have had contact with aliens.
>
>I realize that many of you are not really impressed to say the least.
>
>My main concern is that, after now reading that it was all fake, all those
>people who offered to help me won't believe the next guy who posts a story
>which is true. So please, KEEP ON BELIEVING THOSE PEOPLE SERIOUSLY POSTING
>TO THIS GROUP.
>
>I was very impressed by the help so many people offered, and I really felt
>bad about them offering their help to someone who lied to them. I thank
>all of you who did answer to my posting.
>
>I got a total of 5 replies, the two follow-ups and a phone call from a guy
>from Germany.
>
>Here is what they told me:
>--------------------------
>
>1) One guy guessed it was a Russian classified vertical takeoff aircraft.
>
>2) Two of them wanted to know more about the "sample", where it was now etc.
>
>> ... you might describe these more fully.  What do they weigh?  What
>> size?  What shape?  Greyish, as in dark or light grey?  Dull or
>> bright?  Weathered, machined?
>
>[I was actually describing a chunk of Silicon I took from an aluminum plant.
>It is really strange stuff - very hard, but still metal-like. I was going to
>give some more hints after reading some of the followups (like "it's got a
>resistance of 500 Ohms from one end to the other"), but I didn't want to lie
>to you any further.
>
>3) One concern also mentiuoned was about preserving what I found. This is of
>course very important, and I would recommend everyone hiding A PART of
>something alien they found right away and not even tell anyone about it until
>the time has come.
>
>4) Two people mentioned that in Russia, UFOlogy has been taken much more
>seriously than in the West.
>
>5) One advice I got that makes sense was TO TAKE SOME SOIL OF AN ENCOUNTER
>SIGHT to check for radiation and bacteria.
>
>6) A Special thanks to Garrett for this offer (A follow-up, I hope you don't mind
>me reposting your adress.):
>
>> Send a sample of that rock to me, and we will to some FTICR/MS, Xray
>> fluoresence and other tests on it and see what it is made of:
>>
>>              Dr. Garrett Van Cleef
>>              Laser Spectroscopy Facility
>>              Department of Chemistry
>>              Box 234
>>              The Ohio State University
>>                 Columbus, OH 43210
>
>7) The guy who called me recommended a german book about all this and gave
>me the adress of a german UFO organization. A special thanks to you.
>
>-----
>Generally, I was surprised that everyone believed me. Please keep this up! I
>am confident that anyone who experinced something like this can post and
>people will help him.
>
>
>Of course, almost everyone wanted more info. For your amusement, here is what
>I was planning on telling them:
>                              ____   ____   ____
>The clouds looked like this:-(____)-(____)-(____)-. The sound was 1-2Hz.
>Of course this was supposed to match the "Pulser" aircraft mentioned in the
>FAQ.
>The sample was Silicon (see above).
>The picture disappeared when I had them developed (MIBs?)
>I picked Russia because it makes it harder to check if it really happened.
>
>Again, sorry about all of this,
>       hoping that some of what I found was interesting for you,
>
>                Ulrich
>
>
>
>Ulrich B. Gall, Seebrooksberg 2, W-2300 Klausdorf, Germany
>Tel.: [phone], EMail: [e-mail]


--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen soc.culture.new-zealand:4682 alt.alien.visitors:11100
Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!ferrari.datamark.co.nz!david
From: [e-mail] (David Rowland)
Subject: Re: NZ UFO reports in mainstream press, 1989?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:02:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark McWiggins) writes:
>An acquaintance mentioned something about a bizarre series of UFO
>reports coming out of New Zealand in 1989, allegedly including guys
>wearing "USAF" jumpsuits getting out of a crash-landed craft.
>
>Does this ring a bell for anyone? If so, could you post a summary and/or
>pointers to the relevant press accounts?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>--
>Mark McWiggins        Hermes & Associates        [phone] (voice)
>[e-mail]    Box 31356, Seattle WA 98103-1356  [phone] (fax)


If this is what I think it is, there was some pictures filmed from an
aircraft of undefined lights supposedly travelling huge distances at
enormous speeds.  This was latter discovered to be Venus.

--
| David Rowland       | The British are using New Zealanders.  They must |
| Datamark Intl Ltd   | really mean business !                           |
| Wellington          |      -  General Rommel During Northern African   |
| NEW ZEALAND         |         Campaign WWII.                           |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12741 alt.alien.visitors:11101 sci.skeptic:34219
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:23:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <roelle.721602222@uars_mag>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 35

In article <roelle.721602222@uars_mag> roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>
>>... Her name is Sharula and that is the same name as a star
>>in the Scorpius (sometimes called Scorpio) constellation.
>                  ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Scoropio is not a constellation; it is an astrological sign.  We
>realize you are unable to distinguish between astrology and astronomy
>John, as well as your other problem with fantasy V. reality.

NOT! All astrological signs were/are named after
constellations....or is it the other way around?

either way.....the astrological sign has a counter part in the
sky as a constellation.

Buy a Sky & Telescope smeday ...or go to a library.....

Len

BTW: This "Sharula" is indeed a real flesh and blood person
who has adopted the name "Sharula". She claims to be a
"walkin" alien from anotehr star system. But then agan since I
have been in California....I have met hundreds of poeple who
could fit this description......out here the adage is:
If it moves at all...SELL IT!!!!!! ;^)

Sorry John...couldn't help myself.....The woman self-named
Sharula is a nice person and in no way must the above be
construed as an insult to either Sharula OR John Winston.
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12742 alt.alien.visitors:11102 sci.skeptic:34220 alt.religion.kibology:4689
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ogicse!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Greys, Good, Bad, or Kibozotic
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 06:34:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: world.BxsqAB.848
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Lines: 6

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>  Please don't think that this is something that I alone know about.

Oh, John, we'd never think YOU ALONE know about this stuff!

                            -- K.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ogicse!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,sci.skeptic,alt.postmodern
Subject: Re: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. in bed.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 06:40:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: world.BxsqJK.8Ay
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Lines: 33

[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> Stephen Kuhn <[e-mail]> writes:
>From: Rob Farquhar, temp. using this account.
>    It's amazing how little you people really know about what you're talking ab
>out.  this is not arrogance, but experience talking.  I am a scientist/astronom
>er as well as a contactee.
   ...and also a client!

>  The Darvosians, grey humanoids descended from (nobody knows)
>  The Kaheew, a catlike warrior race kind of like Niven's fictional KZIN
>  The N'gusat-ahh, bovine centaurlike creatures
>  The Farhipti, other grey beings descended from sharks
>  The Skark, bigfoot/wookie looking docile critters
>  The Cante'la, upright walking versions of trilobites
>  The Anarhooksat, telekinetic squidlike beasts that must carry water with them
>       in their ships
>  The Roorpa, pteranodon-like gliders
>  The Xrxquim, isolationist humanoids with greatly enlarged craniums
>  The Hurrparansilar, elaphantine creatures, and
>  The Banarflista, ten-legged mollusks with weapon legs, eating legs, and
>       walking legs
   The Pianoid Linguiniae, phallic-shaped aerosol beings that smell like rum
   The Floopies, the best creatiures in the Universe at their specialized
        task of shouting "Floop-floop-a-doop!"
   The Zzzzzz, the most boring creatures in our galaxy
   The Aaaaaaaa, who believe in being first in all things, and who often
        fool people into thinking someone's fallen out a window
   The Schwa, who shrug a lot
   The Fnord, which are completely generic, more so that humans


    Gee, I couldn't top the silly names.
                            -- K.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12743 alt.alien.visitors:11104 sci.skeptic:34222
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Astral 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 15:57:18 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

Subject: Astral Projection. Part 2.
  It's always best to figure out where you want to go on your journey, when
you want to come back and asked that the spiritual intelligencies that are
assigned to watch over you (your guardian angel) to keep a watch and protect
your physical body while your gone. You'll go where you've decided to go and
come back when you've decided to come back.
   When I was first learnibng how to do this I started using some telpathic
stones, would go to a certain place and then come back.  The next day some
of my friends would call me up  and ask me what I was doing at say 915 PM
last night.  I would then tell them I was doing some experiments with some
telepathic stones. They would then tell me that they had felt my
intelligence or presence appear in the room where they were and before they
could make contact with me, I was gone.
  On another ocassion one of my friends was standing on a street corner
sending his wife a mental message to come pick him up in the car and
suddenly my astral intelligence came in contact with him and just as
suddnely I was gone.  This was also during the time I was using the stones.
  After finally getting astral projection down pretty good I asked Merelle (my
teacher and Guru) if he would see if it was OK if I went up to Mt. Shasta to
visit Sister Thedra (the lady that received telepathic messages from the men
inside Mount Shasta and sent them out to the world).  I had been studing the
teachings and wanted to meet her personally. Merelle asked her by letter to
see if it was OK and she said that I should study for a couple of years to
get some background because they were very busy sending out the teachings
and didn't have much time to teach people the fundamentals.  This reply
didn't satisfy me so I used everything I had been taught before and used
telepathy, ESP astral projection and everything else I knew to contact the
people that were sending her the messages (such as Sananda, and others).  I
made contact and within 3 or 4 days Merelle got another letter saying it
would be OK if I come on up.  I made the trip and it was reallly great.
 From time to time I used to phone into a radio telephone talk show. In doing
this a person listens to the station, phones into the radio station, talks
to the announcer and the conversation is transmitted over the radio so
everybody listening to the radio can hear it. I usually talked about UFOs or
anything connected with ESP.
End Part 2.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12744 alt.alien.visitors:11105 sci.skeptic:34225
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <stone.721943773@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:56:13 GMT
Lines: 7



It's high tribute to human intestinal fortitude that everyone
in A.A.V. puts up with your apparently endless stream of tepid
tabloid drivel, Johnny...

T.R.Stone
Xref: icaen soc.culture.new-zealand:4684 alt.alien.visitors:11106
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!nezsdc!derek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NZ UFO reports in mainstream press, 1989?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Derek Tearne)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 19:17:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark McWiggins) writes:
>An acquaintance mentioned something about a bizarre series of UFO
>reports coming out of New Zealand in 1989, allegedly including guys
>wearing "USAF" jumpsuits getting out of a crash-landed craft.
>
>Does this ring a bell for anyone? If so, could you post a summary and/or
>pointers to the relevant press accounts?

The only ones I remember in 1989 were a couple of guys in Auckland with a
rather large triangular kite!

If they had USAF jumpsuits someone would have noticed and asked them if they
were carrying muclear weapons before letting them land.  If they had
replied 'we will not confirm or deny...' or possibly 'fvarswiggle bloamsnigit
waisnddneepoark vlapstreui' we would have sent them on their way.


--
Derek Tearne.   --   [e-mail]   --    Fujitsu New Zealand   --
Some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Put a Saddle on The Stove, Kids...
Message-ID: <stone.721943207@cwis>
Keywords: Winston the Idiot Rides Again...
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:46:47 GMT
Lines: 18




Put a saddle on the stove, kids---Johnny Winston's gonna
ride the Range tonight....

Hold onto your hats, pardners---that dreckslinger Kid
Winston's a-comin' into town with his copy of the latest
Weekly World News, ready to regale us with tabloid tales
of Pterodactyls.

God help us.

Can't somebody make sure Johnny gets his medication on
schedule?

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!pacbell.com!sgiblab!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!menudo.uh.edu!usenet
From: Kal
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Date: 16 Nov 1992 19:43:34 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: opsup2.admin.uh.edu


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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ogicse!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!convex!finn
From: [e-mail] (Tom Finn)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:10:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: convex.1992Nov16.221041.25296
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: eugene.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>as an international language. I will now close with solar language
>>and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.
>                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    The rhythm of this sounds a lot like what Michael Renny had his earthly
>    girlfriend say to Gort the 'Police Robot' to keep it from destroying the
>    earth in, "THE DAY the EARTH STOOD STILL".
>                                 Adona Vasu BOGUS

Reminded me of televangelist Robert Tilton, speaking in tongues.  Hey- you
don't think he's an *alien*, do you?
                    <grin>

tom
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:34231 alt.paranormal:6008 alt.alien.visitors:11110
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!sctc.com!beede
From: [e-mail] (Mike Beede)
Subject: Re: Jeane Dixon Predicts Bush Victory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: SCTC
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:53:42 GMT
Lines: 14

>>the sex of unborn children: You send me 50 dollars and some pertinent
>>information about the time of conception, etc. and I will tell you the sex
>>of the child. If I am wrong you get your money back.
>If they offer double your money back, go for it. PV

That's just an even-money bet.  They'd have to offer triple your money back to make it profitable for the customers.

    Mike

--
Mike Beede         Secure Computing
[e-mail]     1210 W. County Rd E, Suite 100
------------------ Arden Hills, MN  55112
                    [phone]
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kiwi!murrayb
Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: NZ UFO Reports in Mainstream Press 1989
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Murray Bott)
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:31:06 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Murray Bott)
Distribution: alt
Organization: Household UNIX, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 51

(Mark McWiggin) writes
>An aquaintance mentioned something about a bizzare series of UFO reports
>coming out of New Zealand in 1989,allegedly including guys wearing
>"USAF" jumpsuits getting out of a crash-landed UFO

There have not been any reports resembling the descrition you mention, or at
least not to the best of my Knowledge. If such an incident did take place it
would have made major headlines within New Zealand as well as much discusion
among us in the UFO research community

However there was one report in the weekly Tabloid newspaper "Sunday News"
for the 14th May 1989 with the bold headlines "ALIENS SIGHTED". The report
went on to mention taht golfers at the Wairakei International Golf Course
had seen Three Green Monkey-like Animals strolling out of the mist/
 My attempts to track down the witnesses through the reporter was fruitless.
A phone call to the manager of the golf course (spoke to his wife who also
worked there) was equqally fruitless as they had not been told anything
either, by any of the golfers on the course. The first they heard of this
claim was the newspaper report and they had also nesver heard of the
principal person making this report
 Another colleage attempting to track down this story phoned all the people
in the district with the same name as the principal person making this
report (to the newspaper) was also unsuccesfull as all of those he contacted
denied being resposisible for it.

(Marsha Woosbury) writes
>it may not be widely known outside of New Zealand but certainly within
>....there are many insatances of UFO Sightings in New Zealand and a high
>percentage around Blenheim. The Marlborough Express are replete with the
>sories of possible sightings.

Again those of us among the UFO research community are aware that over the
last 40 years ther have been a large number of "Reported UFO Sightings"
around New Zealand. However for there to be an unusually high number of
such reorts to come from one area in particular (a possible Flap !!)
area such as Blenheim is most unusual and not known .


I would ceratinly ask both Mark and Marsha to check out their sources of
information and keep me informed on more specific and accurate information.

I would also like to hear of any other additional Reported sightings from
around New Zealand should anyone care to keep me posted
I am New Zealand Representative for the Texas (USA) based Mutual UFO Network
Inc (MUFON). I also hold a reasonable Archive of UFO Material going back to
1952 when the first UFO group was started here in New Zealand.

--
Domain : [e-mail]
Voice  : 64-9-6315825
Snail  : PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12751 alt.alien.visitors:11112 sci.skeptic:34239 alt.religion.kibology:4693
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From: [e-mail] (Montykins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Greys, Good, Bad, or Kibozotic
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 92 09:30:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: sdcc12.41115
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcc13.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>  Please don't think that this is something that I alone know about.
>
>Oh, John, we'd never think YOU ALONE know about this stuff!
>

You know what intrigues me about John-O? It's not the subject
matter. It's not the phantomf lettersf in the Subjectf linef.

It's not even the fact that one of his posts was directed to ME
PERSONALLY! (It said, in its entirety, "Dear Person, maybe you are
right. Maybe my floppy disks are getting a little floopy" in
response to some nitpicky comment I made about a typo)

It's his login name. John_-_Winston. As far as I can tell, he told
the computer his full, legal name was "John-Winston", and it
dutifully separated the punctuation out with underlines.

Isn't it cute? Doesn't it make you want to rush out and buy your
John_-_Winston Signature Baseball and Pen Set today?

 -Paul "Monty" Ashley
   (Warning Sign #1: If you think John-Winston is talking directly
to you, GET HELP!)
--
All just the opinions of [e-mail].
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 06:25:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

All Creatures Great and Small: Here it is tuesday and it's time to
announce the destination of the OOBE train for this week. I figure
we should keep it simple this week and just all meet aboard an alien
space ship and let them give us the Cook's Tour of whatever they want
to show us. Nothing special maybe something from the Good guys (the
Good Guys, Asthtar Command and if they can swing it Celestial class)
John Winston. Thanks to Don, Len, Tom, Curt, T.R. and B.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 06:29:11 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear People: I hope all of you are well. I must go to work now.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 06:33:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Monster Watchers: I'll try to answer the questions later. I must
go to work now.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12757 alt.alien.visitors:11116 sci.skeptic:34247
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Meyer)
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Organization: TI DSEG, Spring Creek, Plano, Tx.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:56:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <stone.721943773@cwis>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7
Sender: [e-mail] (Mark Meyer)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:38:35 GMT

In article <stone.721943773@cwis> [e-mail] (Travis Stone) writes:
> It's high tribute to human intestinal fortitude that everyone
> in A.A.V. puts up with your apparently endless stream of tepid
> tabloid drivel, Johnny...

    Alt.alien.visitors, hell!  What about sci.skeptic?!!!

--
Mark Meyer                                               | [e-mail] |
Texas Instruments, Inc.                                  +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
        HI!  I'm a mutating signature virus.  You can resist helping me spread!
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Opera_Ghost)
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:41:38 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>To: [e-mail]
>From: hombas![e-mail]
>
>ST|Wake up everybody! This is the real world...there are no UFOs...
>  `----------------------------------------------------------------


Really?  Prove it.

CJR



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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^2: alien info.wanted
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:27:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
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Max Elliot[writes]


> I'm not trying to say that I should expect hostility and profanity,
>  but I should expect at least *some* ridicule. Anyway, flame the hell
out
>  of him! (via E-mail, please).

>  Cheers!
>-Max

Public ridicule in itself asks for public rebuttle.

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12759 alt.alien.visitors:11119 sci.skeptic:34259
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From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phelix.bellcore.com
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
References: <[e-mail]> <roelle.721602222@uars_mag> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:44:55 GMT
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerry Palo) writes:

|>
|> Actually, there is a constellation called scorpio, and it is
|> part of the sidereal zodiac.  The constellations of the sidereal
|> zodiac vary in size, measured approximately by the extent of the
|> stars that make them up.  This zodiac constitutes the fixed stars,
|> whereas the astrological signs are made up of an imaginary structure
|> that you construct by extending the line between the sun and the earth
|> at the vernal equinox.  That yields "out there" the sign of Ares.
|> Then divide the circle into twelve equal parts and assign the con-
|> stellation names in order.  This is the zodiac (basically an earth-sun zodiac)
|> that most astrologers use.
|>
|> The sidereal zodiac is not based on the sun at all but on the earth and
|> the stars only.  The sun is just another planet that moves through it.
|> There is a smaller number of investigators who also study the sidereal
|> zodiac as well as the traditional solar zodiac. The question arises,
|> if there is really a relationship between the movements of the planets
|> through this zodiac and what goes on on the earth, is it of a different
|> nature than that of the planets' movements through the solar zodiac
|> (if indeed those movements have an influence)?  The answer is that there
|> is a difference.
|>
|> Much misunderstanding could be eliminated if the distinctions were kept
|> clearer, including the scoffing argument raised by scientists that the
|> precession of the equinoxes has shifted all the signs so they no longer
|> line up to the stars, thereby "proving" that astrology is intrinsically
|> nonsense. The fact is that the earth-sun zodiac does not precess, while
|> the sidereal one does. About 2,000 years ago they were approximately
|> lined up (except for the varying sizes of the sidereal zodiac). Today they
|> are about one sign apart (the Platonic year being about 2160 years).
|>
|> Scientific skepticism about astrology has never been based on solid
|> scientific investigation.  It only is based on  a revulsion against the
|> essentially non-scientific methodology of astrology and the often crude
|> application of it in a superstitious way.  The result is that most scientists
|> never get beyond the position that there is absolutely no reason to investigate
|> this "nonsense" anyway, so a few pot shots aimed at the astrology of
|> the National Enquirer variety are deemed to be enough. Then they say,
|> show me some evidence according to my standards of evidence.  Astrologers
|> are not forthcoming with this, so there it stands. No truly scientific
|> investigation is ever made.  For one thing that requires an objective scientist
|> who also has some faith that his investigations may yield concrete results,
|> not one who is determined to find the first piece of evidence that disproves
|> the hypothesis.  If the stars have meaning, then that meaning is as vast and
|> complex as life itself, and not the crude thing that most people make it out
|> to be.


Interesting article (meaning I learned something today), and well stated.

Mike Lynch
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:08:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: triangle.cs.uofs.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:
|>
|>
|>    What is Bill Clinton position on the UFO activities and the
|> government of the USA?  Has anybody ever put the question to him?

I thought this was obvious!!!   Didn't you see him on the front page of
the newspaper with the grey??  It was in all the supermarkets, right up
there next to the check-out.

Boy, how could you have missed it??

bill

--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]         |  This space would be left intentionally blank
                              |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:11:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
> >> |> I've got a hunch there is more than one face and that the Mars
>
>
>What about the Nazca(sp?) Lines in South America?  They have to be viewed
>from very high above the ground as well.  BTW what do our own pyramids look
>like from orbit? Any gifs that anyone knows about?
>

Nope.  Can't see 'em.  Can't see ANYTHING man-made from Earth orbit
and yes that includes the Great Wall of China.  (I'm speaking of
course of naked-eye viewing.  I doubt that the US gov't would take
kindly to us approaching them for .gifs of their spy satellite
photos, even if they are only of the pyramids ;-)

    Jason
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Lee Walton)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!mrccrc!warwick!pipex!demon!zombie.demon.co.uk!lwalton
Subject: Bill Clinton and UFOs?
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: L & W Computer Services Ltd
Lines: 22
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:46:04 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>I'm only a humble English guy, Interested in U.F.O's, but i would be
>interested in having a go at your new President. If you want to read
>a good book on U.F.O's, then try "ABOVE TOP SECRET" and "ALIEN LIASON"
>which are both by Timothy Good. I was a skeptic until i read them, and
>then met Mr.Good at a signing. They are well worth a look in.

I'm reading 'Above Top Secret' at the moment.... it is argued in such
an objective fashion that it makes it very difficult not to believe
that SOMETHING is going on.

I didn't realise Timothy Good had written another book. Garrett,
what's 'Alien Liason' like in comparison to 'Above Top Secret'?

Lee

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----  Lee Walton                   ------  [e-mail]  -----
-----  L & W Computer Services Ltd  ------  [e-mail]  -----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12761 alt.alien.visitors:11123 sci.skeptic:34266
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Back to the subject: Skepticism (was: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <roelle.721602222@uars_mag> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:15:15 GMT
Lines: 74

I just realized (after finishing the response below) that the "Newsgroups:"
line is larger than I thought, so I set

***Followup-To: sci.skeptic***

to keep the crossposting to a minimum.  If you t.r.n readers are still
offended by people who don't share your opinions, sorry.  Hit 'n' now.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerry Palo) writes:
[explanation re: constellations and zodiacal signs deleted,
as well as the Scorpius/Scorpio/Scoropio/Ares discussion]
>Much misunderstanding could be eliminated if the distinctions were kept
>clearer, including the scoffing argument raised by scientists that the
>precession of the equinoxes has shifted all the signs so they no longer
>line up to the stars, thereby "proving" that astrology is intrinsically
>nonsense. The fact is that the earth-sun zodiac does not precess, while
>the sidereal one does. About 2,000 years ago they were approximately
>lined up (except for the varying sizes of the sidereal zodiac). [..]

That's a matter of definition, not a fact.  One precesses with respect to
the other, and you can choose arbitrarily which is the precessing one.
To sum up: Those "scientists" that "raised" the "scoffing argument" missed
the point, and you missed again when you tried to refute them.

>Scientific skepticism about astrology has never been based on solid
>scientific investigation.  It only is based on  a revulsion against the
>essentially non-scientific methodology of astrology and the often crude
>application of it in a superstitious way.

Why should skeptics use a cannon to shoot a sparrow?  It seems that the only
halfway solid scientific investigation *astrology is based on* is one of the
Gauquelins' statistics, and that is currently discussed.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong about scientific evidence.  But don't tell
me about the metal-planet correspondence work; here is an interesting
sentence by Kollerstrom:  "My interest in the experiments had somewhat
waned after finding that they sometimes worked but sometimes did not.")

Please don't misunderstand me: I don't want to say that skeptics should not
investigate astrology, but you can't reproach them with not doing it
(which possibly you didn't want to do anyway).

>The result is that most scientists
>never get beyond the position that there is absolutely no reason to investigate
>this "nonsense" anyway, so a few pot shots aimed at the astrology of
>the National Enquirer variety are deemed to be enough. Then they say,
>show me some evidence according to my standards of evidence.  Astrologers
>are not forthcoming with this, so there it stands. No truly scientific
>investigation is ever made.

Fine, so you have an excuse for not having scientific evidence.  It's the
same excuse that nearly everybody without scientific evidence has.
You are not alone: the "stones are living and moving" school shares your
fate.

>For one thing that requires an objective scientist
>who also has some faith that his investigations may yield concrete results,

Doesn't that mean that the "objective scientist" has to believe that there is
an effect?  You seem to use a new definition of "objective".

>not one who is determined to find the first piece of evidence that disproves
>the hypothesis. [..]

Assistent: "Hey, look here.  There is the first piece of evidence that
  disproves the hypothesis!"
Objective Scientist: "Just ignore it, that's not what we're searching for!"

What's wrong with being determined to find whatever it is you mean by
"evidence that disproves the hypothesis"?

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
...and then the dragon ate the princess and the knight, and he lived happily
ever after.   -- Grandma Addams telling Wednesday a story (paraphrased)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12762 alt.alien.visitors:11124 sci.skeptic:34268
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From: [e-mail] (Roger D. Nelson)
Subject: Re: Astral 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: news@nimaster
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: phoenix.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:10:59 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

On the order of 40 lines, twice as much as usual, of the standard
"halb-starke" flummery he apparently composes for some talk.xxx
newsgroup.  Since this is my day to complain about things that strike me
as inappropriate, I'm going to lengthen his thread against my SOP.
This, despite that most responses to Winston nowadays seem to be jovial
and short comments that indicate some of us are entertained or at least
have _nothing_ better to do than read John Winston, improbable as that
sounds.

Now to the point:  sci.skeptic is not intended as an entertainment, and
mere entertainment is not welcome, especially and importantly because
it devalues the newsgroup, and deters serious and interesting
participants.  All of us welcome a sense of humor, or an entertaining
anecdote to leaven and enliven the group, but repetitive, adolescent
stories don't make it.

John, Please consider taking sci.skeptic out of your header.

Roger


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news!wrs.com!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Subject: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Hostile Aliens Based on Mars
Keywords: Phobos II
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:22:53 GMT
Lines: 46

[e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
and [e-mail] (Net Noise owner) write:

>>                     The Phobos II Incident
>>                  Hostile Aliens Based on Mars

>Phobos II had no way of telling which direction this object was moving
>(assuming it really existed) unless it took multiple photos of said
>object.  Where are these?  I have yet to see any reason to believe that
>this object (again stipulating that it existed) attacked Phobos II.  Why
>do people come to this conclusion?

According to  Dr.  Marina  Popovich,  Soviet  trained  astronaut,  who  first
presented  the  photo  to  the American press, this conclusion was guessed at
since immediately after taking the photo(s) (ther may be more than one), Pho-
bos lost contact with planet Earth.

>>But  the  next  day a top official of  the  Soviet  Space  Agency
>>(Glavkosmos)  said:  "Phobos  II is 99% lost for  good."   It  is
>>important  to note that he stated the entire satellite  was  gone
>>and not just contact with it.

>>It has long been rumored that Mars and it's moon Phobos are alien
>>colonies.   The   surface  of  Mars  is  covered   with   strange
>>shapes/buildings  that  do not appear to be natural such  as  the
>>pyramids,  square  buildings, runways, etc.  etc.  One  structure
>>shows the face of a man with a helmet looking into space.

>You have a very impressive imagination if you can see all this in Viking
>pictures.  There is no reason to think that anything on the surface of Mars
>is artificial except for Vikings 1 and 2 and the remains of early Soviet
>landers.

Bzzzt!  Wrong.  There seems to be ample information to conclude that, indeed,
not  only are there ancient ET cities on Mars, but underground cities as well
and, according to a U.S Army General (retired), that I was with, he said that
there  is  clear  evidence  of mechanical devices on the surface of Mars, and
that they are moving.  Tell me, how many pictures did Viking take?  How  many
have  been  released  to the the public (we paid for them didn't we?). Again,
the real issue is a government that lies to it's people.  If they would  only
tell the Truth...

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail]
-------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Rick)
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Telecom Australia, TNE Computer Support Services
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:16:41 GMT
Lines: 10

[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Astral Projection.
>vision.  One of my teachers could go all the way to Venus by astral
>projection.

Why are we spending megabucks launching probes when these guys can do it
in their living room?  Perhaps NASA should be looking at alternatives?

Rick.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12767 alt.alien.visitors:11127 sci.skeptic:34288
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:21:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
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Subject: Dolphins.
   There is a name that strikes hatred in some of the people who read this Net
and hear a certain person's name. They really fly apart and raved for a long
time.  Thit name is Uri Geller.  The only thing that will calm them down is
to tell about some of the exploits of The Amazing Randy.
  Now at the cost of maybe starting a rior, I'm going to mention a few things
that Uri Geller has to say about Dolphins, so here goes; Uri claims Flipper
is really an alien from outer space and is here to share the secrets of his
own highly advanced extraterrestrial civilization with humanity (Well I
don't know about that. I've never seen a Dolphin driving a flying saucer,
have you?)
  Uri claims he once worked with the U.S. Navy in a hush-hush experiment to
turn dolphins into living torpedoes.
  Their brains are much bigger than the human brain, and they can communicate
with each other even when they're thousands of miles apart .  They can smile
and make facial expression to each other.
 It is well-known that dolphins want to communicate with man-experiments have
already proved that.
  Once they learn to share their secrets with humanity, we'll understand the
miracles Geller says they can perform. Even now, friendly dolphins are being
used to help heal mentally handicapped children. I have found these less
fortunate kids relate more to the friendly dolphins than humans.
 Dolphins, swim with mentally handicapped youngsters in pools under the
supervision of doctors.  Amazingly, after each session, the kids show marked
improvement-and researchers are convinced the children are being healed by
sound waves transmitted by the gentle, caring mammals.
 Their highly developed sensors can instantly detect even the most minor
physical disorder.  When a dolphin looks at a person underwater, it
automatically gives him a complete scan-better than a hospital ultra-scan
examination, believe me.  It's like an X-ray with souund waves,
 Instead of trying  to unlock the incredible scientific and medical knowledge
stored in dolphins' brains, scientists are spending more time training them
to kill than they are doing research into how dolphins can be used to help
mankind.
  I once went to a secret training institute where dolphins were being geared
to carry deadly weapons.
 Scientists there even nicknamed them Kamikaze Dolphins because of their
ability to aim themselves at ships, then there would be no trace of them
after the explosion.
 The gentle creatures are being used as aquatic midwives to swim with mothers
during childbirth and help relax them.
  This is me (John Winston) talking now. That would be all well and good but
some people wouldn't believe anything Uri Geller says.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Flying object sighting(s) from Las Vegas (?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:36:42 GMT
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[e-mail]  writes:
> Having recently taken my first-ever trip to Las Vegas, I've
> been thinking lately about a television show I saw within the
> last year (can't remember which one, exactly, but it was along
> the lines of HardCopy, Inside Edition, or Sightings), on which
> was shown some videotape of what appeared to be aerial objects
> maneuvering about very quickly in all sorts of quirky manners.
> It seems to me that this footage may have been taken from the
> Las Vegas area, as I do recall seeing some sort of city skyline
> and mountains in the distance.  Does anyone recall seeing this
> broadcast videotape also?  Was it taken from Las Vegas?  If so,
> when was this footage shot, and toward which direction from the
> city?

Yes, I remember the show.  It was a Sightings show from last year.  The show
was an hour long and was about UFO's, alien contact, mutilations, and etc.
The clip you are referring to was shot in L.V. in early 1991 and showed 3
objects making high speed diving and ascending maneuvers in front of some
mountains.  The time was about 6:22 in the evening.  I do not know for sure
in which direction the footage was shot, but I believe since it was around
sunset and the sun seemed to be to the rear of the camera, it must have been
to the east.


   Any idea of just how often "weird things" are seen/heard in
> the skies near the Las Vegas area, given its location in relation
> to the reputedly infamous Area 51?  Wasn't there also some local
> TV reporter there who was doing some digging around about UFOs in
> the past couple years?

Yes.  His name is George Knapp with KLAS-TV.  Which I believe is out of L.V.


  Is he the one who shot the video? >
I don't think so, It seemed as though it were done by an amature...

> I might mention also that the driver of the Hoover Dam tour bus
> I was on was fully aware of the Area 51 "legend", and made brief
> mention of it on the tour.  Being a 30-year resident of the area,
> he's been up toward that way a number of times.  He didn't mention
> whether he'd ever encountered anything unusual, however.  (But then,
> I really didn't press the matter.  Yet when I first mentioned about
> people seeing weird things in the skies up toward that way, he
> immediately brought up Area 51 *by name*, even though I hadn't.
> So I don't think the subject is anything new to LV denizens.....)
>
As in the words of Col. Klink "Very interesting.... "  ;)


>
>                                            H.R. Holm
> *comment my own, standard disclaimers;
>  pls post replies to the newsgroup only*


                                                Joseph A. Citro III

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From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Flying object sighting(s) from Las Vegas (?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:45:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 13

As a side note to my previous post about last years Sighting show... They
also mentioned that Jimmy Carter, Barry Goldwater, and Gerald Ford all tried
(supposedly) to release information on UFO's.  THEY were all denied.  I know
there was a previous post about everyone on a.a.v. getting together to send
a letter to President elect Clinton to see if he can release all info on the
matter.  Perhaps, with Ford and Carter's support (Bipartisan!) this may be
possible.  We should all (Skeptics, debunkers, and the rest...) get together
through a.a.v. to see what we can do....

        Whatcha Think??

                                        Joseph A. Citro III

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Viewing Great Wall From Space [was Re: Monuments of Mars]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:42:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>>
>> >> |> I've got a hunch there is more than one face and that the Mars
>>
>>
>>What about the Nazca(sp?) Lines in South America?  They have to be viewed
>>from very high above the ground as well.  BTW what do our own pyramids look
>>like from orbit? Any gifs that anyone knows about?
>>
>
> Nope.  Can't see 'em.  Can't see ANYTHING man-made from Earth orbit
> and yes that includes the Great Wall of China.  (I'm speaking of
> course of naked-eye viewing.  I doubt that the US gov't would take
> kindly to us approaching them for .gifs of their spy satellite
> photos, even if they are only of the pyramids ;-)
>
>     Jason

Actually, the Great Wall of China *can* be seen with the naked eye. I have
seen a normal (i.e. no magnification, flash (just kidding on the last
one!)) photograph of Earth from space, and it did show the Great Wall,
although it was quite dim. Of course, we all know that it wasn't built
with space people in mind.....(unless there's something I don't know about)

I am also guessing that you meant things that aren't illuminated, like cities,
'cos they can be seen at night.
                            Have fun,
                            Aaron G. Stock
--
Aaron G. Stock          |          Ace Pumpkin
[e-mail] | Peter Gabriel Fan and Abalone Player
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drawer 1735     |"And in this moment, I need to be needed
Earlham College     | When my self-esteem is sinking, I like to be liked
Richmond, Indiana| In this emptiness and fear, I want to be wanted
47374         | 'Cos I love to be loved, I love to be loved" -Peter Gabriel
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: A letter to Clinton/Gore
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:45:28 GMT
Lines: 73


Below is a letter I have written to President elect, and Vice President
Clinton/Gore regarding UFO secrecy. I would appreciate any constructive
comments...
Anybody figure out how to reach H. Winkler yet?
Jeff-



Clinton Gore Transition Team
[e-mail]

Jeffrey M. Papineau
[e-mail]

Nov. 16, 1992

Dear Mr. Clinton and Mr. Gore,

This is not a letter of congratulations on your win of the
presidency, but I do congratulate you, and  wish you great success
in the years to come.

The reason I am writing to you is to inform you that as a regular
member of UFO discussion groups on USENET and other electronic
media, there is growing awareness that the US government has
systematically hidden the truth of regular UFO radar sightings at
military installations, UFO crashes and recoveries, and possibly
even extraterrestrial (ET) visitation, communication, and
agreements made with races from beyond our planet.

I will not define or argue these charges, since they are well
documented in books such as Timothy Good's "Above Top Secret",
Michael Lindemann's "UFO's; Six Viewpoints" and William Hamilton's
"Cosmic Top Secret" as well as dozens of other literary works of a
similar nature.

What I do call for you to do during your administration is wipe
clean the veil of UFO secrecy that has existed in this country
since 1945, and declassify all information relating to UFO
sightings, ET visitation and contact, and any communication or
agreements made with such beings.

The American people have a right to know the truth regarding their
place in the galaxy; and the government, being "of, for, and by the
people" has an obligation to US citizens to make the truth known,
and stop hiding it behind the false curtain called "National
Security".

If you truly believe that the American people deserve an honest
government, then the "Secret Government", the lie that UFO's do not
exist, the truth about US government involvement in drug dealing,
money laundering, black projects intended for defense against alien
races or space/world domination; all must be brought out into the
open and laid bare before the people, so that we can take our
country back from the CIA, the NSA, and the other agencies that
would usurp our constitutional rights.

I was very glad to hear of your recent meetings with Mr. Bill
Moyers, and I do believe this is a great statement on your part
that you intend to help the american people and create and honest
government. I call upon you to rid us of the Secret Government, to
tear-down the wall of deciet that has separated the people from the
truth for so many decades, and make the US a truly
democratic society, and the world, a better place to live.

We will be watching, waiting, and hoping, that you will live up to
the greatness that is within you, and protect liberty and
happiness for us all.

Jeffrey M. Papineau


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12768 alt.alien.visitors:11132 sci.skeptic:34315 alt.religion.kibology:4710
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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Greys, Good, Bad, or Kibozotic
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:02:12 GMT



|>
|>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|>>  Please don't think that this is something that I alone know about.
|>
|>Oh, John, we'd never think YOU ALONE know about this stuff!


Yah! there has to be at least half a dozen personalities in your head that
know what you know John.


Steve  Food_for_the_Greys/Reptoids

--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Bruce Watson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:22:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]| <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]| [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
|According to [e-mail]:
|>...and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.
|
|Klaatu Barada Nicto!

Gort! Klaatu Barada Nictu.

--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom)  Tumbra, Zorkovick; Sparkula zoom krackadomando.
....alien language from an SF short story on a 78-RPM record I had as a kid.
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Nz Ufo Reports In Mainstream Press, 1989?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 05:50:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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Lines: 24


 > From: [e-mail] (Jon Clarke)
 > Date: 17 Nov 92 07:34:14 GMT
 > Organization: The Z*NET Global News Gateway in Parnell New Zealand.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: soc.culture.new-zealand,alt.alien.visitors

 >  I am still not convinced there is more UFO activity in Blenheim
 >  or Marlborough than elsewhere. The refernce to Cathey's book is
 >  a red herring IMHO.

 >  Now were you to talk about Longburn and the their experiments
 >  (in the 60's) I would agree with you as would many locals.

Can you give me some specifics on Cathey?  Also, what are you referring to in your last paragraph?

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Haunting Ghost, Mc Donald Lineage)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the truth etc etc...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:06:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: My Castle in the Air
Lines: 27
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

[e-mail] (James Kibo Parry) writes:

:    The Pianoid Linguiniae, phallic-shaped aerosol beings that smell like rum
:    The Floopies, the best creatiures in the Universe at their specialized
:         task of shouting "Floop-floop-a-doop!"
:    The Zzzzzz, the most boring creatures in our galaxy
:    The Aaaaaaaa, who believe in being first in all things, and who often
:         fool people into thinking someone's fallen out a window
:    The Schwa, who shrug a lot
:    The Fnord, which are completely generic, more so that humans

Cold Coffee.

:        Gee, I couldn't top the silly names.
:                                                        -- K.

Ps. :-)

--
...regardait avec plaisir la jolie main qui, comme un petit felin souple,
jouait et sautillait sur le rebord de la fenetre, qui se ramassait comme sur
un bond, se tournait et retournait, faisait le gros dos, prenait son elan vers
le couteau a decouper, dont elle s'amusait a faire rouler le manche, reculait
pour s'etaler a plat, saisissait ensuite le couteau, s'en emparait d'un
mouvement agile, le soulevait pour faire briller au soleil la lame...

                                                     JJ
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From: [e-mail] (O Velejador)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Astral 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:59:13 GMT
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Lines: 20
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

[e-mail] writes:

: Some people are born with these abilities and can do them without being
: taught, other people can do them with  a little bit of instruction, others
: take quite a while to learn and the last type of people are for sure
: they'll never learn and they usually are right.

That's better.

: Here it is Monday morning and it appears that I have a new set of flamers.
: Thank you for your support. It's very heart warming.

Cheerio.

--
Si l'ame est assez forte pour edifier, au coeur du bagne, une morale qui
ne soit pas celle de la soumission, il s'agira, la plupart du temps, d'une
morale de domination.

                                                   AC
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:57:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>
> Nope.  Can't see 'em.  Can't see ANYTHING man-made from Earth orbit
> and yes that includes the Great Wall of China.  (I'm speaking of
> course of naked-eye viewing.  I doubt that the US gov't would take
> kindly to us approaching them for .gifs of their spy satellite
> photos, even if they are only of the pyramids ;-)

I don't believe this. Leaving the great wall aside for a moment, what
about some of the larger man made lakes? And by 'earth orbit' just how
high?
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!coventry!coakley
From: [e-mail] (Cpl.Flash )
Subject: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysh
Organization: Coventry University, England
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:32:14 GMT
Lines: 12


    I'm not to sure of this as i dont have the book to hand (Above
    Top Secret), but wasn't there a report that the crew of the eagle
    (Armstrong et al), when they left the module, turned round and
    found themselves looking at alien craft at the top of a crater?
    I think armstrong said something like "..my god there's hundreds
    of them". I'm not to sure because as i say i don't have the book with
    me,could anyone send me the full report (transcript if possible).

                Thanks
                      Garrett Coakley

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:05:08 GMT
Lines: 21


   I really like your letter to Clinton/Gore.  My only concern is
about the timing.  Should you send it now or wait until our new
President has tackled some of the more important issues.

   I think you should wait a little while because at the moment
he has bigger fish to fry.

    However, I think it would be ok to send it to Al Gore.  The
message it self would be an example of the kind of interaction with
the public his "Digital Highway" will bring about.


--

    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]

  "No creature with the right values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter


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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Tea.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 06:33:32 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Deep Thinkers: How about all of you people coming over to my
house 100,000 years from now. We'll laugh about all of this and
drink some bubble up and eat some rainbow stew?
John Winston.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 06:38:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear People: Thank you for your patience one and all.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!educ-isis!teexijd
From: [e-mail] (IAN DAVENPORT)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Keywords: Phobos II
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:39:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Institute of Education, University of London
Lines: 9

Flame me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the problem with Phobos II that the
control center accidentally sent the craft a "switch off antenna" signal,
realising then that the craft could not receive any "switch on antenna"
signals they might send.

I understand that the West is imposing quite strict double-checking procedures
on the Russian end of Mars 94 now.

Ian J Davenport    MULLARD SPACE SCIENCE LABORATORY    [e-mail]
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From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <roelle.722112801@uars_mag>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Date: 18 Nov 92 18:53:21 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Dolphins.

>Flipper
>is really an alien from outer space and is here to share the secrets of his
>own highly advanced extraterrestrial civilization with humanity

Yet another of John's postings plagiarising popular science fiction genre.
The fiction about dolphins (and white lab mice) who came from outer space
to work among humans is from _The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy_.

Curt Roelle

"Goodbye...And thanks for all the fish!"  -- Dolphins in Hitchhiker's Guide

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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <stone.722110468@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:14:28 GMT
Lines: 64

[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Dolphins.
>   There is a name that strikes hatred in some of the people who read this Net
>and hear a certain person's name. They really fly apart and raved for a long
>time.  Thit name is Uri Geller.

No.  Thit name is "John Winston".

> Blah-blah-blah [Ditfrimmy Deleted]

>Even now, friendly dolphins are being
>used to help heal mentally handicapped children. I have found these less
>fortunate kids relate more to the friendly dolphins than humans.

Really?  Interesting.  When did he do this research?  Where?
Whom did he do it with?  Where did he publish his  findings?

> Their highly developed sensors can instantly detect even the most minor
>physical disorder.  When a dolphin looks at a person underwater, it
>automatically gives him a complete scan-better than a hospital ultra-scan
>examination, believe me.

Why, how could Uri even THINK that we'd ever doubt HIS word,
right, Johnny?

> It's like an X-ray with souund waves,
> Instead of trying  to unlock the incredible scientific and medical knowledge
>stored in dolphins' brains, scientists are spending more time training them
>to kill than they are doing research into how dolphins can be used to help
>mankind.

I don't suppose the dolphins make house calls to the homes of mentally
unbalanced loons who post tabloid crapola to A.A.V., do they,
Johnny? (Hint-hint-hint....)

>  I once went to a secret training institute where dolphins were being geared
>to carry deadly weapons.

How does Geller manage to wrangle invitations to soirees like these,
Johnny?  He and 007 must have alot of names in common in their
Christmas lists.

> Scientists there even nicknamed them Kamikaze Dolphins because of their
>ability to aim themselves at ships, then there would be no trace of them
>after the explosion.

What a surprise.  Gasp.


>  This is me (John Winston) talking now.

Oh boy.  Let the good times roll....

> That would be all well and good but
>some people wouldn't believe anything Uri Geller says.
>John Winston.

You'd best get on the stick yourself and see iff'n those
dolphins make house calls, Johnny.  The medication is CLEARLY
not working for you....

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
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From: [e-mail] (Lab Boy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Out Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:42:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: California State University, Chico
Lines: 21
NNTP-Posting-Host: guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu

>To: [e-mail]
>
>JO|Dear Space People Watchers:  The people from other planets as far as
>  |I have been told will give a sun a name (some of them call our
>  |sun Shan) and we are considered to be the third orbit from our sun
>  |unless you count Vulcan so we are the number three orbit planet of
>  `-------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually there is no, and never was any, planet Vulcan. The space around
the Sun is warped way out of shape by gravity. The strange motion of
Murcery that caused people the think that there was a planet there was
dispelled by Einstein 30+ years ago with the release of General Reletivity.
For more information on gravatic phenominon see Einstein's Circle or Einstein's
Cross in any good Scientific encyclopedia. There are lots of strange things
that can happen when you travel at even .5c in normal space. Time moves a bit
faster on Mars than it does here on Earth.
______
|\   |\      Nick Stefanisko ([e-mail])
| |--+-|
|-+---\|     "Oodal-lada oodal-lada"
 \|____|                            --Thomas Dolby
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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Tea.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:20:43 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Deep Thinkers: How about all of you people coming over to my
|> house 100,000 years from now. We'll laugh about all of this and
|> drink some bubble up and eat some rainbow stew?
|> John Winston.

Oh, gee... I wish you'd posted this before.  I just made other arrangements
for that year.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:14:43 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

>Below is a letter I have written to President elect, and Vice President
>Clinton/Gore regarding UFO secrecy. I would appreciate any constructive
>comments...

In outline, not bad, but it is still a little too "lunatic sounding".  If I
was Clinton/Gore's secretary sorting through the morning mail, I'd put this
one into the "Mad Conspiracy Theorist" bin.  This bin probably gets lots of
mail, so you want to make yours different from the others so that it will be
given a second look.

This is no reflection on you Jeff - it just needs to be made more professional
and less fringe-element sounding.

>Anybody figure out how to reach H. Winkler yet?

No idea.

>Dear Mr. Clinton and Mr. Gore,

>This is not a letter of congratulations on your win of the

Bad start.  Congratulate them and then say something like "I wish to take up
another matter ..."  You want to avoid negatives wherever possible.  You're
dealing with people in suits here - people who don't like to see negatives,
especially when you are flattering them. :)  Even if you didn't vote for them,
still congratulate them.

>The reason I am writing to you is to inform you that as a regular
>member of UFO discussion groups on USENET and other electronic
>media, there is growing awareness that the US government has
>systematically hidden the truth of regular UFO radar sightings at
>military installations, UFO crashes and recoveries, and possibly
>even extraterrestrial (ET) visitation, communication, and
>agreements made with races from beyond our planet.

OK.

>I will not define or argue these charges, since they are well
>documented in books such as Timothy Good's "Above Top Secret",
>Michael Lindemann's "UFO's; Six Viewpoints" and William Hamilton's
>"Cosmic Top Secret" as well as dozens of other literary works of a
>similar nature.

"Of a similar nature".  Not my first choice of a phrase.  Some people would
consider all lunatics to be "of a similar nature", and hence, Good et al, as
well.  But pointing him to published books is good.  Replace "of a similar
nature" with "in the field", or something similar.

>What I do call for you to do during your administration is wipe
>clean the veil of UFO secrecy that has existed in this country
>since 1945, and declassify all information relating to UFO
>sightings, ET visitation and contact, and any communication or
>agreements made with such beings.

OK.

>The American people have a right to know the truth regarding their
>place in the galaxy; and the government, being "of, for, and by the
>people" has an obligation to US citizens to make the truth known,
>and stop hiding it behind the false curtain called "National
>Security".

Good.

>If you truly believe that the American people deserve an honest
>government, then the "Secret Government", the lie that UFO's do not
>exist, the truth about US government involvement in drug dealing,
>money laundering, black projects intended for defense against alien
>races or space/world domination; all must be brought out into the
>open and laid bare before the people, so that we can take our
>country back from the CIA, the NSA, and the other agencies that
>would usurp our constitutional rights.

I think this paragraph is a big mistake.  It may be true, but going for the
throat in an initial letter to the President is a bit premature I feel.
Always remember that you have to get through layers of suits before anyone
even remotely in a position to chew the President's ear will see it.  Going
on about the "Secret Government" will send the wrong signals IMHO.  Get him
interested and doing something about it and then throw the rest in his face.
By all means put books on your book list that talk about this aspect.  Books
(by well-respected UFO researchers) help your case - unsupported claims do not.

Once the Congressional enquiries, or whatever, start, they'll be hard to stop,
and the various three-letter agencies will be running scared (hopefully), but
you don't want to kill your chances of getting the equiries started.

>I was very glad to hear of your recent meetings with Mr. Bill
>Moyers, and I do believe this is a great statement on your part
>that you intend to help the american people and create and honest
>government. I call upon you to rid us of the Secret Government, to
>tear-down the wall of deciet that has separated the people from the
>truth for so many decades, and make the US a truly
>democratic society, and the world, a better place to live.

Not "rid us of the Secret Government", but "rid us of the secrecy".  Same
thing, but likely to get through more "lunatic filters". :)

>We will be watching, waiting, and hoping, that you will live up to
>the greatness that is within you, and protect liberty and
>happiness for us all.

"Greatness that is within you".  Hmmm ... flattering him with newage stuff.
Not exactly my choice either.  Then again, I'm not an American, so I don't
know what the latest in pandering to the overblown American ego is. :)

This is all IMHO of course.  I'm glad to see that someone is taking the
initiative on USENET, but I don't want us to get shot down by an initial
letter, and then be ignored forever after that.  Initial impressions are
always important, especially when dealing with people that can ignore you
if you don't fit into one of their neat little boxes.

One more thing: add your e-mail address and mention alt.alien.visitors.  Maybe
we'll get lucky and someone will be assigned to keep an eye on USENET and
give us feedback on what the new adminstration is doing.  They are already
reportedly on the net.  Now if only a.a.v didn't have such a fringe-element
sounding name ... :-)

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:19:04 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Dolphins.
>   There is a name that strikes hatred in some of the people who read this Net
>and hear a certain person's name. They really fly apart and raved for a long
>time.  Thit name is Uri Geller.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ME thinks John Winston and Uri Geller have something in common!!!!!!!!!
__________________________________________________________________________

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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:05:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Greig) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>>
>> Nope.  Can't see 'em.  Can't see ANYTHING man-made from Earth orbit
>> and yes that includes the Great Wall of China.  (I'm speaking of
>> course of naked-eye viewing.  I doubt that the US gov't would take
>> kindly to us approaching them for .gifs of their spy satellite
>> photos, even if they are only of the pyramids ;-)
>
>I don't believe this. Leaving the great wall aside for a moment, what
>about some of the larger man made lakes? And by 'earth orbit' just how
>high?
>--
>Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH

Yes, I have been corrected from several quarters so I will relent:
1. You can see man-made lakes from orbit, and
2. With certain photographic equipment and correct atmospheric
conditions you can see the Great Wall from a low orbit.
Sorry about the inconvenience:
    Jason

My addition to the Alien Race Race:
    The Biltshar, the most hated and feared race in the Galaxy
            because they are shaped like Ding Dongs!!!!!!!
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:00:00 GMT
Lines: 19

The Magician ([e-mail]) wrote:

: Solar Max ??? that does'nt have anything to do with Fantastic Max does it ?
: you know.. that cartoon kid who travels the cosmos in a toy space ship
: to save the galaxy, with his teddy bear robot ?

I thought Solar Max was a satellite...
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 20:06:57 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<stone.722110468@cwis>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <stone.722110468@cwis>, [e-mail] (Travis Stone) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>>Even now, friendly dolphins are being
>>used to help heal mentally handicapped children. I have found these less
>>fortunate kids relate more to the friendly dolphins than humans.
>
>Really?  Interesting.  When did he do this research?  Where?
>Whom did he do it with?  Where did he publish his  findings?

Isn't it obvious?  John_-_Winston was the subject of the research.  Too bad it
didn't pan out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:16:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Cpl.Flash ) writes:
>
>    I'm not to sure of this as i dont have the book to hand (Above
>    Top Secret), but wasn't there a report that the crew of the eagle
>    (Armstrong et al), when they left the module, turned round and
>    found themselves looking at alien craft at the top of a crater?
>    I think armstrong said something like "..my god there's hundreds
>    of them". I'm not to sure because as i say i don't have the book with
>    me,could anyone send me the full report (transcript if possible).
>
>                Thanks
>                      Garrett Coakley

I think the transcript went something like this:
ALDRIN: Neil, why don't you go check out what's over that hill?
ARMSTRONG: Roger Buzz.
(pause)
ALDRIN: Pssst. Alien guy.  C'mere..whoops is this mike still open?
(pause)
ARMSTRONG: My god, it's full of stars!
ALDRIN: I didn't copy that Neil.
ARMSTRONG: I mean my god there's hundreds of them!
ALDRIN: Hundreds of what Neil, hundreds of what are you getting this
    Houston?
HOUSTON: Ah, we copy Eagle.  MIBs standing by to repress information.
ALDRIN: Repress information on my mark, Houston.
ARMSTRONG: They're everywhere, and they're NUDE!
ALDRIN: Repress information in 5...4...3..
ARMSTRONG: Little blue people...they're putting their clothes on now...
HOUSTON: Ahhh, can we hold on that repress, Aldrin?
ALDRIN: Roger, but not long, Houston, whats the holdup over?
HOUSTON: We've got to set up the leaks now for the crackpots to publish
     in their books.
ARMSTRONG: They're all wearing white! Except one who is wearing red...he
         has a white beard...wait...wait...Buzz this is amazing! They
       are writing something in the dirt!  Buzz!  Buzz!
ALDRIN: Right, Neil, right, what does it say?  Houston, we are coming
    down to the wire up here is the repress a go over?
(pause)
ALDRIN: Is repress go over?
HOUSTON: Repress is go, Eagle.  On your mark.
ARMSTRONG: It says...wait...it says..."C...Ki...Keybo is a..."
ALDRIN: Repress in 5...4...3...
ARMSTRONG: "Keybo is a wee...weener...weinerhead!"  Keybo is a weinerhead!
        That's amazing!
ALDRIN: 1...0...mark
HOUSTON: Repress is go, Eagle.
(pause)

    Jason
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From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 19:09:26 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
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Originator: magney@krusty

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> Subject: Dolphins.
>   Now at the cost of maybe starting a rior, I'm going to mention a few
things
> that Uri Geller has to say about Dolphins, so here goes; Uri claims
Flipper
> is really an alien from outer space and is here to share the secrets of
his
> own highly advanced extraterrestrial civilization with humanity (Well I
> don't know about that. I've never seen a Dolphin driving a flying
saucer,
> have you?)

I've never seen a Dolphin driving a flying saucer, but I also haven't seen
a Bigfoot, a Grey, etc. driving one either.  Besides, the only problem a
dolphin flying saucer would have would be extra mass, from filling it with
water.

>   Uri claims he once worked with the U.S. Navy in a hush-hush experiment
to
> turn dolphins into living torpedoes.

This is certainly believable.

>   Their brains are much bigger than the human brain, and they can
communicate
> with each other even when they're thousands of miles apart .  They can
smile
> and make facial expression to each other.

Brain size isn't everything, of course (elephants also have larger brains)
but they probably are intelligent.  Sonar makes an effective long-distance
communication mechanism.  I seriously doubt the part about facial
expressions, but do they really need them?

>  It is well-known that dolphins want to communicate with man-experiments
have
> already proved that.

Um.  Well, maybe.  I'm not sure.

>   Once they learn to share their secrets with humanity, we'll understand
the
> miracles Geller says they can perform. Even now, friendly dolphins are
being
> used to help heal mentally handicapped children. I have found these less
> fortunate kids relate more to the friendly dolphins than humans.
>  Dolphins, swim with mentally handicapped youngsters in pools under the
> supervision of doctors.  Amazingly, after each session, the kids show
marked
> improvement-and researchers are convinced the children are being healed
by
> sound waves transmitted by the gentle, caring mammals.

I don't know about the sound waves part, but the rest is perfectly
plausible.  In fact, I think I might have heard something like this
before.

>  Their highly developed sensors can instantly detect even the most minor
> physical disorder.  When a dolphin looks at a person underwater, it
> automatically gives him a complete scan-better than a hospital
ultra-scan
> examination, believe me.  It's like an X-ray with souund waves,

This is true.  But what can the dolphins do with their knowledge?

>  Instead of trying  to unlock the incredible scientific and medical
knowledge
> stored in dolphins' brains, scientists are spending more time training
them
> to kill than they are doing research into how dolphins can be used to
help
> mankind.

This is likely true, and not good; but this sort of thing is not confined
to dolphins.

>   I once went to a secret training institute where dolphins were being
geared
> to carry deadly weapons.
>  Scientists there even nicknamed them Kamikaze Dolphins because of their
> ability to aim themselves at ships, then there would be no trace of them
> after the explosion.

Some days I'm embarrassed to call myself a scientist.

>  The gentle creatures are being used as aquatic midwives to swim with
mothers
> during childbirth and help relax them.

Just make sure the baby doesn't drown :-)

>   This is me (John Winston) talking now. That would be all well and good
but
> some people wouldn't believe anything Uri Geller says.
> John Winston.

I don't have much respect for anyone who said they wouldn't believe
ANYTHING Uri says.  It's just that a lot of what he says does fail to fit
what the average scientist believes about the universe (and since a
scientist studies the universe as a career, yd would know a bit more about
the nature of the universe than the average person).
--
| Michael Agney          | Yd - gender neutral pronoun    |
|                        |                                |
|                        | Source:  Stories by Alison     |
| [e-mail] | Tellure, back issues of Analog |
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:52:21 GMT
Lines: 15

[e-mail] (Gerry Palo) writes:

: Scientific skepticism about astrology has never been based on solid
: scientific investigation.  It only is based on  a revulsion against the
: essentially non-scientific methodology of astrology and the often crude
: application of it in a superstitious way.

Sorry, there have been plenty of double-blind tests whose protocols were
approved by astrologers in advance.  The results were ALL negative.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  this must be what it's
Rosemount Inc.                                |like to be a COLLEGE
                                              |GRADUATE!!
[e-mail]                 |
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Aggar)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <mark.722078548@uk96sup>
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:22:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Harris Adacom Corporation.
Lines: 39

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David L Anderson) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>Subject: Where We Came From.
>>  I have found out what I have been it more than 14 lifetimes. One was as an
>>American Indian and one was on the planet Venus.
>>John Winston

>You offer so many points to refute.  I'll start with this one:
>do you have anything other than anecdotal (ie. empirical)
>evidence to indicate that you've lived past lives?  Are you
>aware of studies done by scientists into past lives and the
>lack of empirical evidence to support this kooky hypothesis?

The only way, at this moment that you are going to prove for _yourself_
whether or not the "past life experience" is a reality, is to go and have
yourself hypnotically regressed into a previous incarnation.

With everything that I have read on this subject, each subject who has
undertaken this regression *knows* that the images they are seeing or
remembering are _NOT_ produced due to a vivid imagination - they are
memories.

With this in mind, I am going to get myself regressed shortly and I will
give you an honest account of what happened (barring all the gory and
personal details).

So go on, you skeptics, If you don't believe a word of what is being written,
either butt out or go and do some personal research!

>I'll leave the ad hominem out this time, but you've opened
>holes so big one could route an interstate through them.

..but to construct an interstate, you normally have to do some surveying
of the land first.

Mark Aggar

>David Anderson
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!aw2s+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:13:39 -0500
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: check this news out from clari
Lines: 12


[ The F-B-I is looking into allegations the national security was put
at grave risk because of lax security at a NASA research center in
Mountain View, California. An internal review suggests the facility was
left open to spies.]


this is good news if we are to find out about some govt. ufo coverup
I got this from clari.news.headlines bboard



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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Abort
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:23:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Ex-aliens:  It was mentioned that it would be good to have a
dictionary of another language. I was given some words used by another
planet called Legart. About one in a hundred of the words are the same
as ours. I remember one of the words that was the same was the word
abort.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:26:22 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Pyramid Folks: I just read a book about the pyramid of records
that was mentioned by E. Cayce. Maybe I post something  about it later.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:30:40 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Monster Watchers: The information about the flying things came
from an old article out of some Tabloid.  The magazine name was not
with the article.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:34:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I am wondering if Kathie has had a chance to seperate the
ghost from the auras on her TV set. You have us in suspense.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras auras everywhere
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:36:29 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear One and All: I wonder if Boney Collen has gone over the ocean.
I hope someone will bring her back to me.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens.Part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:38:30 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: alt
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: I was wondering if the maker of this collection got this
material directly out of Behold The Pale House or if it is new
material.
John Winston
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:16:38 -0500
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: about the previous post
Lines: 9


in that news clip I posted above, I wonder what they meant by "national
security"
being threatened.  Hmmm, I wonder what could be so top secret that NASA
could be keeping secret from everyone, maybe ufo's and aliens? Just a wild
guess



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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Out Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:55:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

My Dear Joseph: Me thinkest Thou doth attemptest to pull my leg.
John Winton.
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From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:20:28 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com


Jeff,

Good job.  Please e-mail me a copy.  [e-mail]

I would like to print it out, and put my name in your name spot, and
also send it to the Pres.  I would hope everyone in this group would
do the same thing.  If he gets enough of these letters, he might just
listen.

Kathie  ;.)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12790 alt.alien.visitors:11166 sci.skeptic:34377
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 03:26:09 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<mark.722078548@uk96sup>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <mark.722078548@uk96sup>, [e-mail] (Mark Aggar) writes:
=The only way, at this moment that you are going to prove for _yourself_
=whether or not the "past life experience" is a reality, is to go and have
=yourself hypnotically regressed into a previous incarnation.
=
=With everything that I have read on this subject, each subject who has
=undertaken this regression *knows* that the images they are seeing or
=remembering are _NOT_ produced due to a vivid imagination - they are
=memories.

Yup.  That's a characteristic of hypnotically-induced memories.  They look and
feel just like REAL memories.  The subject is usually incapable of
distinguishing the hypnotically-induced memories from memories of actual
events.  That's why courts these days won't allow testimony that involves
memories that were elicited by hypnosis.

=With this in mind, I am going to get myself regressed shortly and I will
=give you an honest account of what happened (barring all the gory and
=personal details).

And that personal account won't be worth the electricity it costs to send it
out over the net.

=So go on, you skeptics, If you don't believe a word of what is being written,
=either butt out or go and do some personal research!

Why must we do personal research when REAL research has proven that "real"
memories of things that never happened can be produced via hypnosis?

=>I'll leave the ad hominem out this time, but you've opened
=>holes so big one could route an interstate through them.
=
=..but to construct an interstate, you normally have to do some surveying
=of the land first.

Yeah, but you're about to sink some pylons in some quicksand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12791 alt.alien.visitors:11167 sci.skeptic:34378
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:40:17 GMT
Lines: 27

Grant Edwards ([e-mail]) wrote:

: [e-mail] (Gerry Palo) writes:

: : Scientific skepticism about astrology has never been based on solid
: : scientific investigation.  It only is based on  a revulsion against the
: : essentially non-scientific methodology of astrology and the often crude
: : application of it in a superstitious way.
:
: Sorry, there have been plenty of double-blind tests whose protocols were
: approved by astrologers in advance.  The results were ALL negative.

Easy to say, hard to back up.  Specifics, please?  Bibliography - names of
scientists, institutions, dates, titles of published reports, and journals
where published, please...
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 12:13:06 GMT
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

|>   This is me (John Winston) talking now. That would be all well and good but
|> some people wouldn't believe anything Uri Geller says.
|> John Winston.

And you saying it is supposed to make it more probable, John?

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11169 alt.magnus.and.ketil:51
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From: [e-mail] (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Monsters and Etc.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 17 Nov 92 06:33:53 PST
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:58:51 GMT
Lines: 10

>>>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 92 06:33:53 PST, [e-mail]
>>>>> said:

    John> Dear Monster Watchers: I'll try to answer the questions
    John> later. I must go to work now.  John Winston.

Dear John_-_, I'll try to flame you for this later, but I've got some
work to do now.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:48:54 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 65

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Jeff) has written:
+--------------------
| Dear Mr. Clinton and Mr. Gore,
|
| This is not a letter of congratulations on your win of the
| presidency, but I do congratulate you, and  wish you great success
| in the years to come.
+--------------------

    Well, I would move to include a congratulations as a warm opening...
    even though they have received _many_ of these, it serves to
    'set the mood'.  Immediately, when I read that, I felt discouraged.

 [ ... some omittance, for brevity ... ]

+--------------------
| I was very glad to hear of your recent meetings with Mr. Bill
| Moyers, and I do believe this is a great statement on your part
| that you intend to help the american people and create and honest
| government. I call upon you to rid us of the Secret Government, to
| tear-down the wall of deciet that has separated the people from the
| truth for so many decades, and make the US a truly
| democratic society, and the world, a better place to live.
+--------------------
+--------------------
| We will be watching, waiting, and hoping, that you will live up to
| the greatness that is within you, and protect liberty and
| happiness for us all.
+--------------------

    Generally, a good letter ...

    The letter is good, but very poetic in some respects.  I would move
    to write in a more detached manner, and perhaps include some
    specifics with regard to incidents... for example, you might
    include something specific to a dramatic abduction case; one that
    has been highly publicized...

    And I would probably steer away from being so accusational about
    the government, in a negative fashion.  Again, maybe some factual
    accounts to support these accusations would be more appropriate.

    In addition to those, I would also suggest that the letter (if you
    agree to work with a 'group effort') be accompanied by many
    signatures with verifiable addresses and phone numbers (?)...
    those types usually get quicker responses.  The trouble with that
    is how would you coordinate it? :)

    This is an excellent start, Jeff, indeed.  Thanks for posting it.
    If you're willing (and others are) to work as a group with editing
    and submitting suggested inclusions/omissions/editing, this will
    be an excellent effort... dunno if doing it via a.a.v would be
    appropriate, but perhaps through private emailing...

    I can't imagine such a letter to be less than 4 pages, typed...
    particularly if we all work on it and so forth.

    Forrest
--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:32:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 19:12:31 GMT
Lines: 14

>>>>> On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:32:14 GMT, [e-mail]
>>>>> (Cpl.Flash ) said:

    Flash> looking at alien craft at the top of a crater?      I
    Flash> think armstrong said something like "..my god there's
    Flash> hundreds     of them". I'm not to sure because as i

No, no; he said 'Oh my god - it's full of stars!' - of course this was
cencored by the CIA. Dr Asimov, however, who was at that time involved
in a number of Top Secret projects, including the Philadelphia
project, later used it in his book '2001'. It's all there.

-Magnus

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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:35:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 146

To: [e-mail] (Cpl.Flash )
From:[e-mail]

CP|        I'm not to sure of this as i dont have the book to hand (Above
  |        Top Secret), but wasn't there a report that the crew of the eagle
  |        (Armstrong et al), when they left the module, turned round and
  |        found themselves looking at alien craft at the top of a crater?
  `------------------------------------------------------------------------

       (The following file was posted on InfoNet London Ontario)

                         Alien Moon Base
                       by UFO Joe, InfoNet


Is  there an "Alien Base" on the Moon. More and more  people  are
coming  forward  with stories of an Alien presence on  the  Moon.
Rumors  are  that their "Moon Base" is on the dark  side  of  the
moon, the side we never see from Earth.

Did you ever wonder why the Moon landings stopped and why have we
not tried to build a Moon Base. It seems a better and easier idea
than a floating space station?

According  to Neil Armstrong the Aliens have a base on  the  Moon
and  wanted us to get off and stay off the Moon! Milton Cooper  a
Naval   Intellegence  Officer  tell  us  that  the   Intellegence
community calls the Alien Base "Luna":

LUNA:     The  Alien  base on the far side of the Moon.   It  was
          seen  and filmed by the Apollo Astronauts.  A  base,  a
          mining  operation  using very large machines,  and  the
          very large alien craft described in sighting reports as
          MOTHER SHIPS exist there. - Milton Cooper

                          *     *     *

            Did Apollo 11 Encounter UFOs on the Moon?
        from the Book "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good

According  to hitherto unconfirmed reports, both  Neil  Armstrong
and  Edwin  "Buzz" Aldrin saw UFOs shortly  after  that  historic
landing  on  the Moon in Apollo 11 on 21 July  1969.  I  remember
hearing  one  of  the astronauts refer to a "light" in  or  on  a
crater during the television transmission, followed by a  request
from  mission control for further information. Nothing  more  was
heard.

According  to a former NASA employee Otto Binder,  unnamed  radio
hams with their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed NASA's
broadcasting outlets picked up the following exchange:

NASA:     Whats there?
          Mission Control calling Apollo 11...

Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous!
          OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it!
          I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there,
          Lined up on the far side of the crater edge!
          They're on the Moon watching us!

In  1979 Maurice Chatelain, former chief of  NASA  Communications
Systems  confirmed that Armstrong had indeed reported seeing  two
UFOs on the rim of a crater. "The encounter was common  knowledge
in  NASA,"  he revealed, "but nobody has talked  about  it  until
now."

Soviet  scientists  were  allegedly  the  first  to  confirm  the
incident.  "According  to  our  information,  the  encounter  was
reported  immediately after the landing of the module," said  Dr.
Vladimir  Azhazha,  a physicist and Professor of  Mathematics  at
Moscow University. "Neil Armstrong relayed the message to Mission
Control  that  two large, mysterious objects were  watching  them
after  having  landed near the moon module. But his  message  was
never heard by the public - because NASA censored it.  "According
to another Soviet scientist, Dr. Aleksandr Kazantsev, Buss Aldrin
took  color  movie film of the UFOs from inside the  module,  and
continued  filming them after he and Armstrong went outside.  Dr.
Azhazha   claims  that  the  UFOs  departed  minutes  after   the
astronauts came out on to the lunar surface.

Maurice   Chatelain  also  confirmed  that  Apollo   11's   radio
transmissions  were interrupted on several occasions in order  to
hide  the  news from the public.  Before  dismissing  Chatelain's
sensational claims, it is worth noting his impressive  background
in the aerospace industry and space program. His first job  after
moving  from France was as an electronics engineer with  Convair,
specializing in telecommunications, telemetry and radar. In  1959
he was in charge of an electromagnetic research group, developing
new  radar  and telecommunications systems for Ryan. One  of  his
eleven patents was an automatic radar landing system that ignited
retro  rockets  at  a  given altitude, used  in  the  Ranger  and
Surveyor flights to the Moon. Later, at North American  Aviation,
Chatelain  was  offered  the job of designing  and  building  the
Apollo communications and data-processing systems.

Chatelain  claims  that  "all  Apollo  and  Gemini  flights  were
followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite closely, by
space  vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying  saucers,  or
UFOs,  if  you  want to call them by that  name.  Every  time  it
occurred,  the  astronauts  informed Mission  Control,  who  then
ordered absolute silence." He goes on to say:

     "I think that Walter Schirra aboard Mercury 8 was the  first
     of  the  astronauts to use the code name  'Santa  Claus'  to
     indicate  the  presence  of flying  saucers  next  to  space
     capsules. However, his announcements were barely noticed  by
     the  general  public. It was a little different  when  James
     Lovell  on board the Apollo 8 command module came  out  from
     behind  the moon and said for everybody to hear: 'PLEASE  BE
     INFORMED  THAT  THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS.'  Even  though  this
     happened on Christmas Day 1968, many people sensed a  hidden
     meaning in those words."

Rumors  persist. NASA may well be a civilian agency, but many  of
its  programs  are funded by the defence budget and most  of  the
astronauts  are subject to military security  regulations.  Apart
from the fact that the National Security Agency screens all films
and probably radio communications as well. We have the statements
by  Otto Binder, Dr. Garry Henderson and Maurice  Chatelain  that
the  astronauts  were under strict orders not  to  discuss  their
sightings.  And Gordon Cooper has testified to a  United  Nations
committee that one of the astronauts actually witnessed a UFO  on
the  ground.  If there is no secrecy, why has this  sighting  not
been made public?

A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was  engaged
in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA symposium.

Professor:     What REALLY happened out there with Apollo 11?

Armstrong:     It  was incredible, of course we had always  known
               there  was  a possibility, the fact  is,  we  were
               warned  off!(by the Aliens). There was  never  any
               question then of a space station or a moon city.

Professor:     How do you mean "warned off"?

Armstrong:     I can't go into details, except to say that  their
               ships  were far superior to ours both in size  and
               technology  - Boy, were they big!...and  menacing!
               No, there is no question of a space station.
>>> Continued to next message
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] (Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Moon sightings        2/2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:35:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 14

>>> Continued from previous message
Professor:     But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?

Armstrong:     Naturally  - NASA was committed at that time,  and
               couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really was  a
               quick scoop and back again.

Armstrong  confirmed  that the story was true but refused  to  go
into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind the
cover-up.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] (Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:42:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 14

To: [e-mail] (Magnus Alvestad)
From: [e-mail]

MA|No, no; he said 'Oh my god - it's full of stars!' - of course this was
  |cencored by the CIA. Dr Asimov, however, who was at that time involved
  |in a number of Top Secret projects, including the Philadelphia
  |project, later used it in his book '2001'. It's all there.
  `-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  I thought Arthur C. Clark wrote '2001'...

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it?

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12792 alt.alien.visitors:11175 sci.skeptic:34404
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <mark.722078548@uk96sup>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:30:43 GMT
Lines: 16

There are lots of books and articles dealing with past-life research.  I refer
you to Ian Stevenson's "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" and "The
Search for Bridey Murphy" which was written (if memory serves) by a Boston
psychologist who originally set out to debunk the theory, and became a believer.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A Letter To Clinton/gore
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 02:47:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 > From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
 > Date: 18 Nov 92 07:45:28 GMT
 > Organization: BeHereNow
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Below is a letter I have written to President elect, and Vice President
 > Clinton/Gore regarding UFO secrecy. I would appreciate any constructive
 > comments...
 > Anybody figure out how to reach H. Winkler yet?
 > Jeff-

I may have access to Winkler.  What do you want with him?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: 1800 Encounter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 06:18:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Astral Folk: Boy I just got back from the OOBE train with the
idea that I should tell you the truth about an Encounter of the Third
Kind that happened during the 1880s (I think). If I can pull this one
off without out getting shot I'll be money ahead.
John  Winston. I'll try to post it in the future.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12794 alt.alien.visitors:11178 sci.skeptic:34408
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 06:31:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>,
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Spellers: I confess. You've caught me. I spelled this like thit.
I've obviously caught Kiboitis.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11179 sci.skeptic:34410 alt.religion.kibology:4748
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From: shepa@sersun1 (Shepherd A J)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants... IN BED!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:16:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 20
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

James Kibo Parry ([e-mail]) wrote:

: Barangus!  Mondo bazoomo!  Wox wox wox oggle grebbly nad bork bork bock
: fnord egrep roff gnogin fsck zowie, ecky-THUMP!
:
i
ecky-thump? You mean that Yorkshire folk came from the stars? I suppose
Alien3 could compound this strange theory.

(Cue Glen A. Larson ripoff)

"By eck, folks reckon that thy ancestors came from t'stars, and even reight
naw theer's yorkshire folk art theer feightin 'genst even sut'hners fur
theer very black pudden & ferrets. Out theer in t'galaxy..."

--
And the dandy isn't sure,        | Antony J. "Doppelganger" Shepherd
If there's a cure for his malaise,    | [e-mail]
Another pie in the face,        | ---------------------------------
Another time, and another place...    | "Dandy in Disguise" - Steve Wynn
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Hazelwood)
Subject: FAQ FOR THIS GROUP NEEDED!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NetNews)
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 15:25:53 GMT
Lines: 11


Hello. Is there a FAQ for this group?  Can someone tell me where
I can FTP it, or you can beam it to me.  Thanks.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hazelwood                    Universität Heidelberg
EMAIL: [e-mail]       Heidelberg, Germany

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Scott C DeLancey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:30:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: pith.1egiutINNgkq
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <mark.722078548@uk96sup>
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
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NNTP-Posting-Host: darkwing.uoregon.edu

In article <mark.722078548@uk96sup> [e-mail] (Mark Aggar) writes:
>
>The only way, at this moment that you are going to prove for _yourself_
>whether or not the "past life experience" is a reality, is to go and have
>yourself hypnotically regressed into a previous incarnation.
>
>With everything that I have read on this subject, each subject who has
>undertaken this regression *knows* that the images they are seeing or
>remembering are _NOT_ produced due to a vivid imagination - they are
>memories.
>
>So go on, you skeptics, If you don't believe a word of what is being written,
>either butt out or go and do some personal research!
>
There;s a very dangerous misconception here.  The fact that you feel as
though you "know" something does not guarantee its truth.  Subjects may
well *know* that the images they are seeing "are memories" -- but that
"knowledge" is not evidence to anyone else, and shouldn't count as
evidence even to the subjects themselves if they have any idea of what
their minds can do to them while they aren't looking.  Your memories--even
ordinary memories of everday pedestrian reailty--are
not factual records of objective truth, however much they may feel like
it.

Scott DeLancey
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12799 alt.alien.visitors:11182 sci.skeptic:34426
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 10:48 MST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <mark.722078548@uk96sup>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 70

In article <mark.722078548@uk96sup>, [e-mail] (Mark Aggar) writes...
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David L Anderson) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>>Subject: Where We Came From.
>>>  I have found out what I have been it more than 14 lifetimes. One was as an
>>>American Indian and one was on the planet Venus.
>>>John Winston
>
>>You offer so many points to refute.  I'll start with this one:
>>do you have anything other than anecdotal (ie. empirical)
>>evidence to indicate that you've lived past lives?  Are you
>>aware of studies done by scientists into past lives and the
>>lack of empirical evidence to support this kooky hypothesis?
>
>The only way, at this moment that you are going to prove for _yourself_
>whether or not the "past life experience" is a reality, is to go and have
>yourself hypnotically regressed into a previous incarnation.
>
>With everything that I have read on this subject, each subject who has
>undertaken this regression *knows* that the images they are seeing or
>remembering are _NOT_ produced due to a vivid imagination - they are
>memories.

Regression subjects do not *know* that their recollections are not
produced due to vivid imagination, confabulation, or cryptomnesia.
Further, many subjects who believe that this is the case have had their
recollections investigated and the sources have been found to be novels,
stories told to them as children, and so forth (e.g., Bridey Murphy).
   Mike Stackpole of the Phoenix Skeptics was on a radio show with a
woman who did a hypnotic regression on the air of another woman, who
recalled a past life in China under some specific name I forget.
Mike pointed out that what the woman had just described was an episode
of the TV show "Kung Fu," at which point the hypnotic subject realized
that she had indeed seen that episode.
   In order for the evidence to support a past life, you must be able to
show (a) that the recollections are independently supported by other
evidence (e.g., records showing that the person recalled did exist and
did do the things that were recalled) and (b) the person doing the recalling
did not have access to that information.  It is better to check (a) before
(b) because the latter is harder to verify and the former usually fails.
   It should be further noted that (a) and (b), if both verified, do not
necessarily mean that the person in question had a past life, because
there are other logically possible explanations (e.g., obtaining the
information by psychic means).  (This has recently been discussed by
Ian Stevenson and Stephen Braude in the _Journal of Scientific Exploration_.
It's not clear that there is any evidence which can discriminate between
psi and survival of death.)

>With this in mind, I am going to get myself regressed shortly and I will
>give you an honest account of what happened (barring all the gory and
>personal details).
>
>So go on, you skeptics, If you don't believe a word of what is being written,
>either butt out or go and do some personal research!
>
>>I'll leave the ad hominem out this time, but you've opened
>>holes so big one could route an interstate through them.
>
>...but to construct an interstate, you normally have to do some surveying
>of the land first.
>
>Mark Aggar
>
>>David Anderson

Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12800 alt.alien.visitors:11183 sci.skeptic:34427
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:05:47 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>Sorry, there have been plenty of double-blind tests whose protocols were
>approved by astrologers in advance.  The results were ALL negative.

Could you please give references, if possible?  I think this belongs in the
FAQ...

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
...and then the dragon ate the princess and the knight, and he lived happily
ever after.   -- Grandma Addams telling Wednesday a story (paraphrased)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Keith M. Skar)
Subject: Info Needed Part 2
Sender: [e-mail] (News login)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:18:19 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu
Organization: Minot State University -- Minot, ND.
Lines: 9

I'm still looking for a FAQ for this group, I havent been
able to find one and I believe that there is one floating
out there somewhere.  So could somebody please either send
me a copy (if they have it handy) or show me a ftp site where
I might be able to find it.  How often is it posted.

Thanks

Keith
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:48:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 26


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes...
>Bzzzt!  Wrong.  There seems to be ample information to conclude that, indeed,
>not  only are there ancient ET cities on Mars, but underground cities as well
>and, according to a U.S Army General (retired), that I was with, he said that
>there  is  clear  evidence  of mechanical devices on the surface of Mars, and
>that they are moving.  Tell me, how many pictures did Viking take?  How  many
>have  been  released  to the the public (we paid for them didn't we?). Again,
>the real issue is a government that lies to it's people.  If they would  only
>tell the Truth...
>  David W. Jones

Oh, please. Been reading Hoagland, eh? Gawd, it just grows and grows. Last I
saw, he and someone else had formulated a unified field theory from the two
Viking photos of the Cydonia region. There seems to be no limit on the amount
of new scientific breakthroughs we can get out of those two grainy photos.

So where's this clear evidence? And what does a US Army general know about
Mars, anyway? Why not go over to sci.astro and ask the people at JPL who ran
the Viking missions?

How many pictures: thousands. How many released: all of them. They're available
on CD ROMs. Get them and look for yourself. But of course, this must be another
government lie...

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:03:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 31


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) writes...
>Below is a letter I have written to President elect, and Vice President
>Clinton/Gore regarding UFO secrecy. I would appreciate any constructive
>comments...
>
>The reason I am writing to you is to inform you that as a regular
>member of UFO discussion groups on USENET and other electronic
>media, there is growing awareness that the US government has
>systematically hidden the truth of regular UFO radar sightings at
>military installations, UFO crashes and recoveries, and possibly
>even extraterrestrial (ET) visitation, communication, and
>agreements made with races from beyond our planet.

Well, to start off in a somewhat accusational tone, based on information that's
ambiguous at best, is probably a bad idea. The name "USENET" probably means
nothing to an average politician.

>I will not define or argue these charges, since they are well
>documented in books such as Timothy Good's "Above Top Secret",
>Michael Lindemann's "UFO's; Six Viewpoints" and William Hamilton's
>"Cosmic Top Secret" as well as dozens of other literary works of a
>similar nature.

Again, well documented or not, these charges are not well known outside of the
UFO community, and to thus quote them like gospel, to be quite honest, makes
you sound like a looney to most people. This is meant to be constructive - you
have to keep in mind that UFOs are a fringe subject, and Joe Sixpack would get
a good laugh out of a.a.v and the "flying saucer freaks"...

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!bu.edu!taco!garfield.catt.ncsu.edu!thumper
From: [e-mail] (Chris Mojica)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aliens. Part1,2,3 I posted them
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:44:50 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: alt
Organization: North Carolina State University
Lines: 8

Well I posted the articles but I d/l them from a local bbs.

-Chris

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Email: [e-mail] | Computer and Technologies Theme Prg|
|        [e-mail]          |   North Carolina State University  |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:11 EST
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:16538288:peg:422800034:000:367
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!golight    Nov 19 21:11:00 1992
Lines: 14


G'day Rhys....

Instead of your IMHO's why don't you get off your dorkus & write a
personal ltr to the Pressie yo self?

As for Jefferies post...good on'm....in addition we've got plenty
of secret government to get to ourselves....so let's get to work.

If half the population of the planet would stand-up and get on
with it...the rest would follow!

Regards, Photon

Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:49:20 -0500
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clari news bulletin
Lines: 11

I got this newsclip from yesterday on clari.news.headlines


[ The F-B-I is looking into allegations the national security was put
at grave risk because of lax security at a NASA research center in
Mountain View, California. An internal review suggests the facility was
left open to spies.]

Does this have anything to do with ufo info and the govt. coverup of it,
or does this involve something else, any opinions??

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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:24:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Lines: 19
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

[sarcastic skeptic post deleted to save electricity]

Have you ever done any *real* research, or are you just talking through
your hat?  Ever read J. B. Rhine's studies on the Bridey Murphy case?
Ever read Ian Stevenson's stuff?  If you haven't done any real research
into the field, I respectfully submit that your opinion is nothing more
than that - opinion, and a misinformed one, at that.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12804 alt.alien.visitors:11191 sci.skeptic:34447
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:28:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Lines: 23
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Scott C DeLancey ([e-mail]) wrote:

: their minds can do to them while they aren't looking.  Your memories--even
: ordinary memories of everday pedestrian reailty--are
: not factual records of objective truth, however much they may feel like
: it.

Unless backed up by a sizeable body of evidence.  If I say that I have been
to location X, and seen Y, and ten people also go to location X and agree
that they see Y, I'd think that's pretty convincing evidence that what we
have here is a factual record.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:33:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Lines: 54
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

James J. Lippard ([e-mail]) wrote:

: Regression subjects do not *know* that their recollections are not
: produced due to vivid imagination, confabulation, or cryptomnesia.
: Further, many subjects who believe that this is the case have had their
: recollections investigated and the sources have been found to be novels,
: stories told to them as children, and so forth (e.g., Bridey Murphy).

Bridey Murphy was *not* out of a novel or a story told to them when
they were a child.  That hypothesis was pure speculation.

:    Mike Stackpole of the Phoenix Skeptics was on a radio show with a
: woman who did a hypnotic regression on the air of another woman, who
: recalled a past life in China under some specific name I forget.
: Mike pointed out that what the woman had just described was an episode
: of the TV show "Kung Fu," at which point the hypnotic subject realized
: that she had indeed seen that episode.

So?  What does that prove?  That reincarnation and past lives research
is just so much bullshit?  I think not.

:    In order for the evidence to support a past life, you must be able to
: show (a) that the recollections are independently supported by other
: evidence (e.g., records showing that the person recalled did exist and
: did do the things that were recalled) and (b) the person doing the recalling
: did not have access to that information.  It is better to check (a) before
: (b) because the latter is harder to verify and the former usually fails.

What is "usually"?  Dick Sutphen has done quite a bit of evidence-gathering
along these lines, and has verified quite a bit of what he has been told by
people he has regressed.

:    It should be further noted that (a) and (b), if both verified, do not
: necessarily mean that the person in question had a past life, because
: there are other logically possible explanations (e.g., obtaining the
: information by psychic means).  (This has recently been discussed by
: Ian Stevenson and Stephen Braude in the _Journal of Scientific Exploration_.
: It's not clear that there is any evidence which can discriminate between
: psi and survival of death.)

Mixed up in that is the postulate that there *is* no such thing as time.  If
this is true, then "past lives" communication and psi are one and the same.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:52:36 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
>Scott C DeLancey ([e-mail]) wrote:
>: their minds can do to them while they aren't looking.  Your memories--even
>: ordinary memories of everday pedestrian reailty--are
>: not factual records of objective truth, however much they may feel like
>: it.
>Unless backed up by a sizeable body of evidence.  If I say that I have been
>to location X, and seen Y, and ten people also go to location X and agree
>that they see Y, I'd think that's pretty convincing evidence that what we
>have here is a factual record.
Perhaps, but are we talking about that case or the one where ten people
go to locations x[0]-x[9] and see y[0]-y[9]?

-Ekr

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              [e-mail]
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 [e-mail](preferred)
                "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: 1880s Encounter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 17:56:17 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

Subject: 1800s Encounter:
 One time I was calling into the telephone talk show called The Herb Jepko
Show and I told Herb that I was going to play a little trick on him so he
said, "Go ahead, be my guest".
   I told him the following story; Once upon a time a person saw a light come
down out of the sky and some people got out of a vehicle and come over and
talked to him. What Herb, do you think that was. Herb answered that it
sounded like  any another story of a peson coming in contact with the beings
from a UFO. I then told him the rest of the story and that is the beings had
shining apparel and showed him some golden tables that had writing on them.
Herb then said, "Oh but that was the angels of the Lord coming down and
dealing with Joseph Smith".  I then agreed with him and referred him to a
small book by Joseph Smith that told of his experience. I've forgotten the
name of the book but it had a name like Pearl of Great Price or Golden
Jewels. Maybe some of you can remind me what the name of the book is. Herb
Jepko's Show was broadcast from Salt Lake City. Utah.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:11:44 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear People: I hope you people don't blow a fuse. Take it easy.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:33:35 GMT
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
>Scott C DeLancey ([e-mail]) wrote:
>
>: their minds can do to them while they aren't looking.  Your memories--even
>: ordinary memories of everday pedestrian reailty--are
>: not factual records of objective truth, however much they may feel like
>: it.
>
>Unless backed up by a sizeable body of evidence.  If I say that I have been
>to location X, and seen Y, and ten people also go to location X and agree
>that they see Y, I'd think that's pretty convincing evidence that what we
>have here is a factual record.

Factual record, yes. A factual record of an objective truth, no.

>--
>Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177
>
>"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
>all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
>seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
>he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
>--
>Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177
>
>"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
>all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: 1800 Encounter.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Thu, 19 Nov 92 06:18:15 PST
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 16:50:26 GMT
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>>>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 92 06:18:15 PST, [e-mail]
>>>>> said:

    John> without out getting shot I'll be money ahead.  John
    John> Winston. I'll try to post it in the future.

Well, if you can pull it off without being flamed.. :-/

As for posting it in the future I suppose it would be trivial for you
to post it in the past, with your OOBE and all that magic.

-Magnus
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mind Control of UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 21:23:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Yey Sir: You people listen to this man Joseph. He's telling the truth.
So help me Bibo.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cayce's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 21:50:55 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Lines: 10

Subject: Cayce's Pyramid.
  In the last month I have read a book called Discovering The Lost Pyramid by
G. Cope Schellhorn. I don't recommend the book very highly but if you are a
person who is already interested in the Edgar Cayce material then I think it
would be of interest to you.  It tells of a person's search for a small
place that was made underground very near the Great Pyramid of Egypt that
has a lot of records that contain information about Atlantis and a little
bit about Lemuria. It gives the exact  location of this material. I bought
the book in the East West Book Store in Palo Alto, Calif.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 21:52:57 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16

Subject; Big Bird.
   I glad you are reading this rather than me. If I were reading it I wouldn't
believe it and it happened to me.
  It all started when a friend of mine told me about a time when she and her
teen age daughter (who is a changeling) with a few of her friends were in a
very scary place on the sides of some mountain near Fremont, Calif. (Mission
Peak).  They were all having a good time when they started hearing something
make a lot of noise.  As they got close they could see that something was
growling like a dinosaur and knocking the brush down with it's wings but
they couldn't see anything. They said the found a large nest about 20 feet
across that looked like it was made by a very large bird. They left the area.
  I checked with my psychic advisor and he said that reports of Big Bird had
been in the newspapers lately and he didn't mean Big Bird of Sesame Street
on TV.  He advised me not  to go in alone and not go in at dark.
End Part 1.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:04:16 GMT
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Spellers: I confess. You've caught me. I spelled this like thit.
>I've obviously caught Kiboitis.
>John Winston.

Yes, but I've caught John_-_Winstonitis.  It's very painful.  And worse,
now I have to go through and add "_-_"s all over my .signature.

                        -- Ki_-_Bo
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 22:35:39 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <roelle.721939012@uars_mag>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: DistNet Technical Support
Lines: 25

In article <roelle.721939012@uars_mag>
(Curtis Roelle) writes:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> >Subject: Astral Projection.
> >  I have had some requests to explain how astral projection is done so here
> >goes;  Well now that we've got this far you should be able to do, !. Send
> >and receive thoughts. 2. Seal the aura (we haven't covered that one yet) and
> >3. Call a flying saucer.  If you haven't accomplished these things yet it
>     **** * ****** ******
>
> Call a flying saucer as in summons, or just for a chat?
>
> I for one want to here more about it.  Hailing a saucer for the
> airport would certainly impress the boss more than just catching an
> ordinary old taxi cab.  Sure, we could just skip the airplane thing,
> but I don't want to seem pretentious.

Well, ya know, what I can't figure is that if these guys in the flying
saucers are so smart, why haven't they figured out how to do e-mail
yet and got linked to the internet?

=Doug

---

uuisis!testsys!doug
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:06:28 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>they couldn't see anything. They said the found a large nest about 20 feet
>across that looked like it was made by a very large bird. They left the area.
>  I checked with my psychic advisor and he said that reports of Big Bird had
>been in the newspapers lately and he didn't mean Big Bird of Sesame Street
>on TV.  He advised me not  to go in alone and not go in at dark.

John, you weren't hit on the head by one of the 500-pound bird turds,
were you?

                        -- K.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: psci15.polisci.umn.edu
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Subject; Big Bird.
>   I glad you are reading this rather than me. If I were reading it I wouldn't
>believe it and it happened to me.
>  It all started when a friend of mine told me about a time when she and her
>teen age daughter (who is a changeling) with a few of her friends were in a
>very scary place on the sides of some mountain near Fremont, Calif. (Mission
>Peak).  They were all having a good time when they started hearing something
>make a lot of noise.  As they got close they could see that something was
>growling like a dinosaur and knocking the brush down with it's wings but
>they couldn't see anything. They said the found a large nest about 20 feet
>across that looked like it was made by a very large bird. They left the area.
>  I checked with my psychic advisor and he said that reports of Big Bird had
>been in the newspapers lately and he didn't mean Big Bird of Sesame Street
>on TV.  He advised me not  to go in alone and not go in at dark.
>End Part 1.
>John Winston.

I recently read that the Sesame Street Big Bird escaped, and due to
contract negotiations is engaging in terror to try to bring the government
to put pressure on Sesame Street, Inc. to give in to Big Bird's demands.
You can go in alone at dark, despite the appearance, Big Bird is as gentle
and friendly as she appears on TV.   -- scott
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 06:16:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Deep Thinkers: Here  it is friday and we're still talking and
have not killed one another yet, so that is a step in the right
direction. Do you realize how many people have been killed in the
past just because they brought up the subjects we are talking about.
Free speech is a great gift.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cayce's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 06:20:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
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Lines: 3

Dear Pyramidologists: The life of Edgar Cayce is wonderful study. There
are many books written about him. My favorite is There is a River.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <stone.722268772@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:12:52 GMT
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Call the Doctor, call the Nurse;
Johnny's bad, and getting worse.

T.R. Stone
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 06:23:20 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Lines: 3

Dear Bird Watchers: I hope you all have a good weekend and don't
let Big Bird get you.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Reality / Truth
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:18:25 GMT
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                Truth / Past Life Regression / Reality
                ______________________________________

There seem to be several topics we have discussed here which can be regarded
as "just a matter of faith", simply because we do not have, and in some cases
never will have enough hard evidence. They will continue to be so, however
much we discuss them (or insult each other), until overwhelming *new*
evidence is produced.

These include:

- the face on Mars (I don't think the new probe's photos will be conclusive)
- reincarnation and regression
- the very existence of UFOs and aliens
- religions and their offshoots
- auras
- astral projection
- the Secret Government
- Bigfoot
- the Kennedy assassination
- politics
- God (He doesn't appear often in this group, but He is sometimes
  mentioned in email. For some obscure reason His existence has never seemed
  to be in question, although there is no proof whatsoever...)

 Peter (@stycx.hacktic.nl (Author)) asked a very pertinent question:

    >The question is now whether it is reasonable to suppose that this
    >readiness, is in fact  the level to which the person is prone to
    >halucinations, or to which the person reached an awareness which allows
    >her/him to interact within a higher actuality.

In other words, are people who experience something unusual entering into a
state of reality which only certain people can access, or a state of fantasy
which only certain people can access? And what is more, DOES IT MATTER, if we
will never be able to prove it conclusively anyway?

Some of us are absolutely convinced about our beliefs. For me, they happen to
be the principles of A Course In Miracles. For somebody else, they will be
society's acceptance of the existence of aliens, the superiority of a
particular political party, or the importance of finding a cure for cancer.
But how many of us would be prepared to change our mind just from a
discussion (with no new facts)? I love to discuss the meaning of life with
other people, but I have never changed my views, nor theirs. (Mine do vary
slightly from those of Monty Python.) My motives are absolutely clear - I
want to convince them that I'm right, which will also save the world. I'm
sure that many people think it would change the world for the better if
others accepted their ideas too.

The point is, we have to accept the fact that other people think differently.
If somebody doesn't believe a "fact", then we have to accept that, and not
call them a moron. I don't believe everything that JohnW writes, but I admire
his tenacity, his benevolence, and his humour. I am convinced that the USA
does not have a secret treaty with Russia and the aliens, mainly through
interviews of people involved in the Cuba crisis. But this may have been
disinformation. Most of our opinions seem to be based on something we read or
heard or saw on TV; very little is based on first-hand experience. We can
give each other new information in this group, but we should not assume it
will be accepted as fact. By the way, ACIM says ALL material is illusion!

                        Love and blessings,     Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (reilly derek)
Subject: Re: Abort
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 07:47:43 GMT
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 I knew there would be some talk of this. Abort abort isn't that extreme. A similar word that I found more interesting was cocappendage (equivalent to our slightly less Aristotlean coctail). The vision of these supralogical category mongers teetotallin about the great expanse was more than my slight experience could acceptably fathom.

                            JERSEY:JUNE:24:1993
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From: [e-mail] (Forklift of Pain)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: none
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:45:34 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Subject; Big Bird.
>    I glad you are reading this rather than me. If I were reading it I
wouldn't
> believe it and it happened to me.
>   It all started when a friend of mine told me about a time when she and her
> teen age daughter (who is a changeling) with a few of her friends were in a
Um, John...do you have any friends/acquaintances who are *not*
changelings, aliens, yogis, astral travelers, shamans, levitators,
reincarnated refrigerator repairmen, or mystics?

Wondering in Florida,
F 'o P
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 08:01 MST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes...
>James J. Lippard ([e-mail]) wrote:
>
>: Regression subjects do not *know* that their recollections are not
>: produced due to vivid imagination, confabulation, or cryptomnesia.
>: Further, many subjects who believe that this is the case have had their
>: recollections investigated and the sources have been found to be novels,
>: stories told to them as children, and so forth (e.g., Bridey Murphy).
>
>Bridey Murphy was *not* out of a novel or a story told to them when
>they were a child.  That hypothesis was pure speculation.

"Bridey Murphy" was allegedly the name in a past life of one Virginia
Tighe, a Pueblo, Colorado housewife hypnotized by Pueblo businessman
Morey Bernstein, who wrote the book _The Search for Bridey Murphy_.
The story was also told by William J. Barker in the Denver _Post_
in a three-part serial titled "The Strange Search for Bridey Murphy."
   Tighe claimed that as Bridey Murphy, she lived in Cork, Ireland.
Reporters sent there by the Chicago Daily News and the Denver Post
were unable to verify the existence of Bridey Murphy.  On the other
hand, the Chicago American sent reporters to Virginia's old home town,
Chicago.  They found Mrs. Anthony Corkell, who had known Virginia
as a teenager.  Mrs. Corkell's (note the similarity to "Cork") maiden
name?  Bridie Murphy.
   Further investigation showed that many events Virginia described
in the life of Bridey Murphy were events from her *own* life.  At the
age of 6 or 7 she was whipped for scratching fresh paint off her metal
bed, which was a recollection of "Bridey Murphy."  Her sister once
suffered a bad fall down a staircase, which is what "Bridey Murphy" said
caused her own death.  Her uncle used to dance jigs for pennies in the
Chicago streets.  In high school, Virginia did some Irish monologs
in drama class with an accomplished brogue.  And many more parallels.

See chapter 26 of Martin Gardner's _Fads and Fallacies in the Name of
Science_ for more.

>:    Mike Stackpole of the Phoenix Skeptics was on a radio show with a
>: woman who did a hypnotic regression on the air of another woman, who
>: recalled a past life in China under some specific name I forget.
>: Mike pointed out that what the woman had just described was an episode
>: of the TV show "Kung Fu," at which point the hypnotic subject realized
>: that she had indeed seen that episode.
>
>So?  What does that prove?  That reincarnation and past lives research
>is just so much bullshit?  I think not.

No.  It demonstrates that cryptomnesia is something that does occur
in hypnotic regression and needs to be taken into consideration.

>
>:    In order for the evidence to support a past life, you must be able to
>: show (a) that the recollections are independently supported by other
>: evidence (e.g., records showing that the person recalled did exist and
>: did do the things that were recalled) and (b) the person doing the recalling
>: did not have access to that information.  It is better to check (a) before
>: (b) because the latter is harder to verify and the former usually fails.
>
>What is "usually"?  Dick Sutphen has done quite a bit of evidence-gathering
>along these lines, and has verified quite a bit of what he has been told by
>people he has regressed.

What is "quite a bit"?  By "usually," I mean that I am aware of no really
good cases for reincarnation.
   For some reason, Dick Sutphen, when invited to appear on KFYI radio
in Phoenix to discuss reincarnation, backed out when he learned that a
skeptic (me) would also been on the show.  The program was cancelled.

>:    It should be further noted that (a) and (b), if both verified, do not
>: necessarily mean that the person in question had a past life, because
>: there are other logically possible explanations (e.g., obtaining the
>: information by psychic means).  (This has recently been discussed by
>: Ian Stevenson and Stephen Braude in the _Journal of Scientific Exploration_.
>: It's not clear that there is any evidence which can discriminate between
>: psi and survival of death.)
>
>Mixed up in that is the postulate that there *is* no such thing as time.  If
>this is true, then "past lives" communication and psi are one and the same.

I don't think you can make sense out of the postulate that "there is no such
thing as time."  Some events happen at some times, some at other times, no
matter what particular metaphysical view of time you happen to hold.
I do think that theories of personal identity are affected by theories of
time, but I don't see how any theory of time gives the result that there
is no difference between having lived a past life or just psychically
picking up information about a past life.  Care to elaborate on this?

By the way, if all times exist, then one should be able to do a "future life
progression" as easily as a "past life regression," and thereby make
accurate predictions about the future.  But the only "future life progression"
I am aware of always goes way into the distant future, so far that there
is no danger of any predictions being proved wrong in the lifetimes of the
promoters of these claims.

I recommend Paul Edwards' four-part series on "The Case Against Reincarnation"
in _Free Inquiry_ magazine, in which he addresses Stevenson's cases in the
fourth part.  (Fall 1986, Winter 86/87, Spring 87, Summer 87)  Edwards
also now has a book out on the subject.

Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
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From: [e-mail] (Mats Anders Knip)
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 18 Nov 92 22:14:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet pseudouser id)
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Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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Date: 20 Nov 92 17:00:28
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>>Below is a letter I have written to President elect, and Vice President
>>Clinton/Gore regarding UFO secrecy. I would appreciate any constructive
>>comments...

>In outline, not bad, but it is still a little too "lunatic sounding".  If I
>was Clinton/Gore's secretary sorting through the morning mail, I'd put this
>one into the "Mad Conspiracy Theorist" bin.  This bin probably gets lots of
>mail, so you want to make yours different from the others so that it will be
>given a second look.

I agree with about everything Rhys said. Remember that it's the president
you're talking to here - if you want anybody to take your letter
seriously, don't "assume" that UFOs exit. Don't say that "there is a growing
awareness of this and that and that the government has been hiding the
truth about ET-contacts and UFO-landings". Keep rational. We don't *know*
this, and what we really want is to find out *if* there is any truth
behind all the rumors. If you are absolutely sure about the existance of
UFOs - fine, but don't tell the president about it. It doesn't take much
to put your letter in the "Mad Conspiracy Bin", so if you want the president
to read your letter, don't say what you think, but rephrase it. Say that
"the US-citizens has got the right to know whether there is any truth
behind the rumors or not" rather than "we know that the government has been
hiding the truth". There is a fine line you've got to walk on, and it's
very easily crossed.

   >>The American people have a right to know the truth regarding their...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   >>people" has an obligation to US citizens to make the truth known,
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He he. Now *that* is American. You don't really believe that, do you.
I mean, *really* ?  Clinton may say so in his campain, because he knows
that's what you all want to hear, but really - we all know it's baloney.
If 10000 demonstrants say "the public has got the right to this and that"
it may have some effect, but when one single person says the same I don't
really think he cares. He's a media-monster.

  >>government. I call upon you to rid us of the Secret Government, to
  >>tear-down the wall of deciet that has separated te people from the
  >>truth for so many decades, and make the US a truly
  >>democratic society, and the world, a better place to live.
  >>We will be watching, waiting, and hoping, that you will live up to
  >>the greatness that is within you, and protect liberty and
  >>happiness for us all.

And so we live happily ever thereafter. You forgot the smiley   :^)

I am not an American, and hence many americans may not agree with me on
what I say, (americans tend to make a bigger deal of the "public's rights"
than others) but If I wrote a letter to the president of my country I most
certainly wouldn't phrase things the way you do. But hey - I'm not
American so what do I know? This is MHO anyway.
--
 *=--------------------------------------------------------------------------=*
 *                     E-Mail:   [e-mail]                      *
 *     Helsinki University of Technology / department of Computer Science     *
 *=--------------------------------------------------------------------------=*
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From: [e-mail] (Scott C DeLancey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 16:30:06 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
>Scott C DeLancey ([e-mail]) wrote:
>
>: their minds can do to them while they aren't looking.  Your memories--even
>: ordinary memories of everday pedestrian reailty--are
>: not factual records of objective truth, however much they may feel like
>: it.
>
>Unless backed up by a sizeable body of evidence.  If I say that I have been
>to location X, and seen Y, and ten people also go to location X and agree
>that they see Y, I'd think that's pretty convincing evidence that what we
>have here is a factual record.

But--unless there's "evidence" around that I've missed--that isn't an
accurate picture of the results of past life regressions.  More like you
"remember" having been to M and seen X, someone else feels they've been
to N and seen Y, a third has been to O and seen Z.  Different
individuals' regressed memories are not memories of the same thing, only
memories of the same kind, and therefore don't confirm one another.
Different schizophrenics often have very similar sorts of delusional
systems, but the similarities don't do anything to confirm the validity
of their mental experience.

Scott DeLancey
i
C
Scott DeLancey

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Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz - Computing Center
Date: Friday, 20 Nov 1992 17:57:08 CET
From: Mutter Christoph Johannes <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Test
Lines: 1

This is only a test? Nevermind (NIRVANA).
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Free speech is a great gift.
>John Winston.
  John, could you please use your free speech in ski.skeptic and alien
visitors. I would prefer to hear about peoples thoughts on GOD. Thats
why I subscribe to this group and not alt.aliens. Just a little
suggestion. People get mad at you (myself included) and I don't
like that. There's enough of that in the world already.

p.s. I do think you're funny sometimes (most times) and I promise
to read you in alt.aliens.

p.s.s. but after all its only IMHO..............thanks Sandy

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From: [e-mail] (Mark Pietrasanta)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|>
|> >Subject; Big Bird.

[very odd story about a strange family and a money sucking psychic]

|> >John Winston.
|>
|> I recently read that the Sesame Street Big Bird escaped, and due to
|> contract negotiations is engaging in terror to try to bring the government
|> to put pressure on Sesame Street, Inc. to give in to Big Bird's demands.
|> You can go in alone at dark, despite the appearance, Big Bird is as gentle
|> and friendly as she appears on TV.   -- scott
                   ^^^
Has anyone actually _seen_ something to indicate the gender of Big Bird?
I seem to vaguely remember Big Bird falling in love with someone on the show
(another bird or human), but I don't remember.

Has BB ever laid an egg?

What is the BB courting ritual?

Mark Pietrasanta - [e-mail]
* * * * * * * * *

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from
mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

----------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: These responses are my own and in no way reflect the
            views of my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Lawrence C Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:53:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James J. Lippard) writes:

>>:    Mike Stackpole of the Phoenix Skeptics was on a radio show with a
>>: woman who did a hypnotic regression on the air of another woman, who
>>: recalled a past life in China under some specific name I forget.
>>: Mike pointed out that what the woman had just described was an episode
>>: of the TV show "Kung Fu," at which point the hypnotic subject realized
>>: that she had indeed seen that episode.

>>So?  What does that prove?  That reincarnation and past lives research
>>is just so much bullshit?  I think not.

>No.  It demonstrates that cryptomnesia is something that does occur
>in hypnotic regression and needs to be taken into consideration.

>cough< >cough<

I'd say it proves that "reincarnation and past lives research
is just so much bullshit".  No one, in all of history, has
come forth with a provable, demonstrable case of reincarnation,
with associated evidence.  It has been claimed so often, and
then rebutted so thoroughly, as in the paragraph above, that
most reasonable people would, I think, feel quite comfortable
in claiming that it was, in fact, so much bullshit.  There is
probably more doubt about gravity than reincarnation.

But like most bastions of pseudo-science, the believers will
always believe, and will continue to search out new examples
that will "confirm" their idea.  In the process, they will
subject themselves and their loved ones to many gallons of
snake oil and more hokum than you can shake a stick at, but
it _does_ all serve a purpose.  If they ever _do_ come up
with irrefutable evidence, then we'll have to re-examine some
real science.  But I feel pretty comfortable that science
shows that life is in the "hardware", as it were.  No one
has suggested or demonstrated any sort of mechanism for
transmission of life experience from one dead body to another
without dropping into the muzzy-headed world of religion.
Which is, I guess, as it should be, for clearly anyone who
continues to believe in reincarnation in the face of all the
evidence to the contrary _must_ be taking it as an article
of religious faith, whether they call it that or not.

Sometimes Occam's razor is the cruelest cut of all...

Larry Smith ([e-mail])  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want,
it is the freedom to do whatever we are able.
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mind Control of UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:56:37 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Yey Sir: You people listen to this man Joseph. He's telling the truth.
> So help me Bibo.
> John Winston.



Bibo ? I thought it was Kibo the Bobbit.

BTW, anybody seen the simpsons yesterday ?
They told the truth about BigFoot ;)



JM.
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:43:53 GMT
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has richard hoagland actually been making these more-than-usually
bizarre claims? the only thing of his that I have read is 'monuments
of mars' which is (taken all in all) fairly restrained.

does anyone know his compu$erve address? I have heard rumors and second
hand reports attributing all sorts of wierdness and conspiracy theories
to him. it might be worth while to ask him about all of this stuff.

josh

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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 19:02:22 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
=Scott C DeLancey ([e-mail]) wrote:
=
=: their minds can do to them while they aren't looking.  Your memories--even
=: ordinary memories of everday pedestrian reailty--are
=: not factual records of objective truth, however much they may feel like
=: it.
=
=Unless backed up by a sizeable body of evidence.  If I say that I have been
=to location X, and seen Y, and ten people also go to location X and agree
=that they see Y, I'd think that's pretty convincing evidence that what we
=have here is a factual record.

Suppose you're then presented with evidence that you, personally have never
been to location X?  But you've still got the memory?e
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 19:07:27 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
=:    Mike Stackpole of the Phoenix Skeptics was on a radio show with a
=: woman who did a hypnotic regression on the air of another woman, who
=: recalled a past life in China under some specific name I forget.
=: Mike pointed out that what the woman had just described was an episode
=: of the TV show "Kung Fu," at which point the hypnotic subject realized
=: that she had indeed seen that episode.
=
=So?  What does that prove?  That reincarnation and past lives research
=is just so much bullshit?  I think not.

It demonstrates, as I pointed out in a previous post, that memories that are
found under hypnosis are simply not to be trusted.  You can't use such memories
themselves as evidence of past lives.  Someone else has posted suggestions for
how you can REALLY test whether the regression was valid.  The mere fact that
the memories feel real is useless.  The topic is covered in the sci.skeptic
FAQ.

=:    In order for the evidence to support a past life, you must be able to
=: show (a) that the recollections are independently supported by other
=: evidence (e.g., records showing that the person recalled did exist and
=: did do the things that were recalled) and (b) the person doing the recalling
=: did not have access to that information.  It is better to check (a) before
=: (b) because the latter is harder to verify and the former usually fails.
=
=What is "usually"?  Dick Sutphen has done quite a bit of evidence-gathering
=along these lines, and has verified quite a bit of what he has been told by
=people he has regressed.

Fine.  But there's no point in checking to see whether someone might have had
access to the information via conventional means until you verify that the
information is accurate, now is there?  Or don't new-age bliss-ninnys care
about things like that?

That's the first step.  Now, did he bother to take the second step and make
sure that the subject didn't have some way of knowing the information without
having lived past lives?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12835 alt.alien.visitors:11223 sci.skeptic:34508
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!data.nas.nasa.gov!mustang.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 19:12:58 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
=There seem to be several topics we have discussed here which can be regarded
=as "just a matter of faith", simply because we do not have, and in some cases
=never will have enough hard evidence. They will continue to be so, however
=much we discuss them (or insult each other), until overwhelming *new*
=evidence is produced.
=
=These include:
=
=- the face on Mars (I don't think the new probe's photos will be conclusive)
=- reincarnation and regression
=- the very existence of UFOs and aliens

The existence of UFSs is not in any way in doubt.  Any time you see something
flying and can't identify it, you've seen a UFO.  Please use a more appropriate
term, like "alien spacecraft" when you mean "alien spacecraft."

=- religions and their offshoots
=- auras
=- astral projection
=- the Secret Government
=- Bigfoot
=- the Kennedy assassination
=- politics
=- God (He doesn't appear often in this group, but He is sometimes
=  mentioned in email. For some obscure reason His existence has never seemed
=  to be in question, although there is no proof whatsoever...)

Which of the several groups to which you've posted this are you talking about?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12836 alt.alien.visitors:11224 alt.religion.kibology:4783
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!theory.TC.Cornell.EDU!mdw
From: [e-mail] (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: theory.tc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:39:20 GMT
Lines: 12

I'm sorry, this subject line is spellef wrong. It should be

    Subject: Big Birdf

Thanks for the pedanticism,

mdw

--
Matt Welsh    [e-mail]        [phone]
Systems Programmer, Cornell Theory Center
  "We're going away now. I fed the cat."
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:40:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 11

According to [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels) :
>It was a little different when James Lovell on board the Apollo 8
>command module came out from behind the moon and said for everybody
>to hear: 'PLEASE BE INFORMED THAT THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS.'  Even
>though this happened on Christmas Day 1968, many people sensed a
>hidden meaning in those words."

Oh, that's just priceless.  Really!
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12838 alt.alien.visitors:11226 sci.skeptic:34513
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!aplcen.apl.jhu.edu!uars_mag!roelle
From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Keywords: Reality / Truth
Message-ID: <roelle.722292906@uars_mag>
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:55:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:

>There seem to be several topics we have discussed here which can be regarded
>as "just a matter of faith", simply because we do not have, and in some cases
>never will have enough hard evidence. They will continue to be so, however
>much we discuss them (or insult each other), until overwhelming *new*
>evidence is produced.

>These include:
>- the Kennedy assassination

Faith aside, there is significant evidence that Kennedy was in fact
assassinated.  There were at least two reported occurrances within
a five year period.

Curt Roelle
(Not necessarily the opinions of clients or their customers.)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!jls19
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:40:56 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Penn State UFO Discussion Group
Lines: 9

On Monday, November 23, 1992 at 7:00 pm at 207 Sackett Building, University
Park campus, there will be a meeting of the PSU Discussion Group.  This
weeks' meeting features a discussion panel consisting of Dr. Louis Winkler:
Penn State Professor, Astonomer, Consultant and Writer, Bill Thompson: UFO
researcher and historian, Bill Russell: NASA Consultant and T.  Scott Crain:
Local area director of MUFON and author of "UFOs, MJ-12 and the Government:
A Report on Government Involvement in UFO Crash Retrievals".  This forum is
free and open to the general public.  Any questions, please feel free to
contact Janet L.  Smith at [phone].
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!infonode!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:25:02 GMT
Lines: 7

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>
>According  to Neil Armstrong the Aliens have a base on  the  Moon
>and  wanted us to get off and stay off the Moon!

That would explain,  "That's one giant creep for mankind"

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [Part 1 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:56:37 GMT
Lines: 1077

              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 11/20/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
       It currently takes up 143k (around 75 printed pages) in all
                       Line width is about 75 char.
                             (Part 1 of 4)


Hello and welcome to the alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
posting. You may notice that this FAQ does not follow the standard question
asked, question answered format. The reason for this is that this FAQ is
designed to answer questions of people who are new to this Usenet discussion
group, and designed to be a useful reference source to those interested in
UFOlogy. I tried to keep a neutral stance when I researched the many of the
subjects covered in this FAQ; however you may also notice that some of the
material seem to be one-sided. When doing some of the research I may have
only used one book or source, thus (as you may have noticed) some authors
present information from only one point of view and this has a tendency to
be carried over to this FAQ, do to the lack of information on the subject
from another point of view.  (deep huh? well I hope to include more
viewpoints as this FAQ grows.) Also please when reading information from
this FAQ (as one poster put it) take everything you read here with a very
large grain of salt. (rock salt) Even I don't believe all the information
that I have included in this FAQ. As I said its mainly a reference to
help you out. If you find yourself interested in a UFO related subject,
**DO RESEARCH** read books on the subject, dig into both sides, write
letters to the authors and researchers.

I would once again like to thank everyone who contributed to the FAQ,
I would like to especially thank Steve Gamble and Jeff Papineau for the work
they put into the UFO Organizations section.


Contents
========
(Part 1 of 4)
Main Sections
-------------
0.0: Whats new??
0.1: About alt.alien.visitors
0.2: Posting to alt.alien.visitors
0.3: People who post to alt.alien.visitors
0.4: Common Sense Guidelines
0.5: Example Posting

Terminology and Definitions Used in UFOlogy
-------------------------------------------
2.00: a.a.v.
2:01: Astronomical Units (A.U.)
2:02: Close Encounters (CE) & Visual Sightings
2:03: Marfa Lights
2:04: Men In Black (MIB)
2:05: Tectonic Strain Theory (TST)
2:06: UFOnauts
2:07: Unusual Ground Markings (UGM)
2:08: USAF
2:09: Zine

Alien Races
-----------
  NI: Andromedans
3.00: Arcturus
3.01: Aryans (Blondes)
3.02: Blues (Star Warriors)
  NI: Centaurian
3.03: Confederation of Humans
  NI: DALs
3.04: Greys
  NI: Lyrians
3.05: Orion Empire (Orion forces)
3.06: Pleiadians
3.07: Sirius
3.08: Reptoids
3.09: Vega

Abductions and Current Theories
------------------------------
4.00: About Abductions

UFOlogists
----------
5:00: Hopkins, Bud
5:01: Jacobs, Dr David
  NI: Howe, Linda Moulton
5:02: Klass, Philip J.
5:03: Marciniak, Barbara J.
5:04: Randles, Jenny
5:05: Stringfield, Leonard H.
5:06: Vallee, Jacques

(Part 2 of 3)
UFO Projects & Theories & Controversies
----------------------------------------
6.00: Aurora Project or "deep black" projects
6.02: NASA Footage September 10th
6.03: Planetoid (Wormwood)
6.04: Project Blue Book
6.05: Roswell Crash Incident

UFO Movies, Documentaries and TV Programs
----------------------------------------
= 7.00: TV Programs
  NI: Arthur C. Clark's Mysterious World (Discovery channel)
7.01: E. T. Monitor (the Keystone Inspirational Network)
7.02: Hard Copy (??)
  NI: In Search Of (A&E)
7.04: National Geographic (PBS)
7.05: sightings (FOX)
7.07: Unsolved Mysteries (NBC)

= 7.08: UFO Videos, Movies, Documentaries
  NI: Bermuda Triangle, The
  NI: Chariots of the Gods
7.09: Close Up
7.10: Communion
  NI: Disappearance of Flight 412
  NI: Endangered Species
  NI: Hangar 18
  MD: Intruders
  NI: Mysteries from Beyond Earth
  NI; UFO
  NI: UFOs are Real
7.11: UFO Coverup Live
7.12: UFO Documentary
  MD: UFO Incident, The
7.13: UFO, The Films Prove It
  NI: Visitors from the Unknown

UFO Magazines and Publications (UFOzines)
-----------------------------------------
8.00: Circular, The
8.01: Cerealogist, The
8.02: Connecting Link Magazine
8.03: CONTINUUM
8.04: Crop Watcher, The
8.05: Earth,
8.06: Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic, The
8.07: Faithist Journal, The
8.08: Focus
8.09: Fortean Times,
8.10: Inner Light
8.11: International UFO Library Magazine
8.12: Magonia,
8.13: Orvotron Newsletter
8.14: Ovni Presence
8.15: Revelations of Awareness
8.16: Swamp Gas Journal
8.17: UFO Universe

UFO Book Publishers
-------------------
9.00: Advent Publishing Company
9.02: Arnerica West Publishers
9.03: Arcturus Book Service
9.04: Condor Books, Inc.
9.05: Document Research Services
9.06: Earth Star Publications
9.07: Eden Press
9.08: JACO Book Publishers
9.09: The Library of the New Essenes of Inyo
9.10: Luna Ventures
9.11: The Pleiades Project
9.12: UFO Audio-Video Clearing House
9.13: UFO Books
9.14: UFO Photo Archives
9:15: Worldwide UFO Newsclipping Bureau and Public Information Center 955
West

Miscellaneous Information
-----------------------
10.00: A UFO Book List
10.01: alt.alien.visitors archives (back issues)
10.02: Big Foot (Sasquatch)
10.03: Free UFO Class
10.04: Freedom of Information
10.05: Hidden Ancient Ruins
10.06: Inter Library Loans (ILL)
10.07: NASA Shuttle Footage
10.08: UFO Related anonymous FTP Sites

(Part 2 of 4)
UFO Organizations                                  * Assumed Acronym
------------------
11.00: Aerial Phenomenon Research: The Indiana Group  . . . . .*(APR)
11.02: Aetherius Society, The
11.03: Ancient Astronaut Society    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(AAS)
11.04: Ancient Truth Research Foundation    . . . . . . . . . .*(ATRF)
11.05: Awareness Reserch Foundation, Inc , The    . . . . . . .*(ARF)
11.06: Borderland Sciences Research Foundation  . . . . . . . . (BSRF)
11.07: British UFO Research Association . . . . . . . . . . . . (BUFORA)
11.08: California UFO     . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(CUFO)
11.09: Citizens Against UFO Secrecy   . . . . . . . . . . . . . (CAUS)
11.10: Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
       Claims of the Paranormal Contactee   . . . . . . . . . . (CSICOP)
11.11: Computer UFO Network   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (CUFON)
11.12: Contactee
11.13: Cosmic Awareness Communications  . . . . . . . . . . . .*(CAC)
11.14: CSETI                . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (CSETI)
11.15: Delval UFO, Inc.
11.16: Fair Witness Project, Inc., The  . . . . . . . . . . . .*(FRP)
11.17: Federation, The
11.18: Flying Saucer Information Center . . . . . . . . . . . .*(FSIS)
11.19: Fortean Research Center, The
11.20: Fund for UFO Research, Inc.,The  . . . . . . . . . . . .*(FUFOR)
11.21: Gulf Breeze Skywatch   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(GBS)
11.22: Inner-Peace Prosperity Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . (IPPN)
11.23: Intercontinental UF Galactic Spacecraft
       - Research and Analytic Network  . . . . . . . . . . . . (ICUFON)
11.24: International Committeee for UFO Research  . . . . . . . (ICUFOR)
11.25: International Fortean Organization   . . . . . . . . . . (INFO)
11.26: Intruders Foundation
11.27: Island Skywatch
11.28: J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies  . . . . . . . . . (CUFOS)
11.29: Massachusetts Center for the study of
       Aerial Phenomena, The  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(MCSAP)
11.30: Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on
       Aerial Phenomena   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (MICAP)
11.31: MutuaL UFO Network   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (MUFON)
11.32: Mutual UFO Network of North Carolina, Inc.   . . . . . . (MUFON-NC)
11.33: National Investigations Committeee on UFOs  . . . . . . .(NICUFO)
11.34: National Sighting Research Center, The   . . . . . . . . (NSRC)
11.35: Nevada Aerial Research Group   . . . . . . . . . . . . . (NARG)
   NI: New Zealand UFO Studies Centre . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(NZUFOSC)
11.36: North American Circle  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(NAC)
11.37: North American Institute of Crop Circle Research   . . . (NAICCR)
11.38: Northamptonshire UFO Research Centre   . . . . . . . . . (NUFORC)
11.39: Northern UFO Network   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (NUFON)

(Part 4 of 4)
11.40: Omega Communications
11.41: ParaNet (Paranormal Network) Information Service . . . . (PARANET)
11.42: Pennsylvania Association for the
       Study of the Unexplained . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (PASU)
11.43: Pnet
11.44: Portland UFO Group, The  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (PUFOG)
11.45: Roundtown UFO Society
11.46: Royal Priest Research  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(RPR)
11.47: Search for EXtraterrestrial Intelligence, The. . . . . . (SETI)
11.48: Sirian Rainbow Lodge   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(SRL)
11.49: SKYNET
11.50: Socie'Te' Belge d'Etude des Phenomenes Spatiaux  . . . . (SOBEPS)
11.51: Society for Scientific Exploration   . . . . . . . . . . (SSE)
11.52: Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained, The  . (SITU)
11.53: System Ready
11.54: Transcendental Communications A Division of LAMAT Research
11.55: UFO Contact Center International   . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOCCI)
11.56: UFO Fllter Center  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOFC)
11.57: UFO Information Retrieval Center . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOIRC)
11.58: UFO Investigators League . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOIL)
11.59: UFO, Paranormal and Conspiracy BBS, THE  . . . . . . . .*(UFOPCBBS)
11.60: UFO Reporting and Information Service. . . . . . . . . . (UFORIS)
   NI: UFO Research Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFORA)
11.61: UFO Study Group of Greater St. Louis
11.62: Ufology Research of Manitoba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOROM)
11.63: United Aerial Phenomena Agency . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UAPA)
11.64: Universal Articulate Interdimensional
       Understanding of Science (UNARIUS Academy of Sciences) . (UNARIUS)
11.65: Victorian U.F.O. Research Society Inc. . . . . . . . . . (VUFORS)

Disclaimer
----------

FAQ Requests
------------

FAQ Suggestions
---------------

=== 0.0: Whats New to the FAQ?
------------------------------
Please not that the newly added UFO magazines, organizations, book
publishers, etc... will be added to the list alphebetically but under
the headding of "NI" (New Information) until I get a chance to renumber
the indix and the FAQ sections.

New informarion since last psoting:
Alien Races
(information added to)
   Arcturus
   Confederation of Humans
   Greys
   Orion Empire
   Sirius
   Reptoids
added: (all researched by [e-mail] (Arbaline))
   Centaurian
   Lyrians
   DALs
   Andromedans
UFOlogists
   Howe, Linda Moulton
   Stringfield, Leonard H.
   Vallee, Jacques
TV SHOWS:
   In Search Of
   Arthur C. Clark's Mysterious World
UFO Videos, Movies, Documentaries
I have reorganized this section and moved (MD) some movies from the TV
dection into this section and renamed the section to include movies.
   UFOs are Real
   UFO
   Visitors from the Unknown
   Mysteries from Beyond Earth
   The Bermuda Triangle
   Chariots of the Gods
   Disappearance of Flight 412
   Endangered Species
   Hangar 18
UFO Organizations:
   New Zealand UFO Studies Centre
   UFO Research Australia

=== 0.1: About alt.alien.visitors
---------------------------------
alt.alien.visitor is a Usenet discussion group available through internet.
Currently a.a.v. is the only UFO related discussion group available on
Usenet. It caters to a wide rage of UFO related discussion from New Age
UFOlogy to Scientific UFOlogy. It currently receives around 36 posting
daily. All comments by me are indicated by the square brackets[]

=== 0.2: Posting to alt.alien.visitors
--------------------------------------
The following idea was suggested by [e-mail] and is
taken from [e-mail] (Melissa Wauford)'s "*** REC.ARTS.TV
POSTING GUIDELINES ***". I have adapted it to fit alt.alien.visitors, and
I feel that this is an excellent idea. I would recommend that you use this
system when posting to alt.alien.visitors.

alt.alien.visitors can be a controversial newsgroup with a wide variety
of discussed topics. A few topics may generate more traffic than others
and may contain subject matter related to UFOlogy that others wish to
filter out or concentrate upon.  In order to allow those who use rn or
some other method of pre-selecting articles to filter out (or save away)
postings about these heavy traffic subjects, an abbreviation scheme has
been created.  Please help out by starting your subject line with one of
the following abbreviations when posting about these topics. For example:

Subject: HOT - Dancing Aliens

or

Subject: OP: Grey finger snacks,(the trick is in how you fold them)

New abbreviations will be added as needed. Send suggestions directly to
me, and I'll add them to the list. Objections to any abbreviations should
probably be posted so that a consensus may be reached. Old abbreviations
will be deleted when no longer necessary.


Suggested Abbreviations by [e-mail]:
[revised by [e-mail]]

 ABD = Abduction information
  CE = Pertaining to UFO sightings and phenomena, Close Encounters,
       alien contact
  HA = Jokes & silliness
 HOT = Someone flaming someone else
 INV = Postings about alien invasions and conspiracies
MISC = Other categories like Atlantis/Mu/Spacemen, etc...
  NA = New Age stuff
NEWS = UFO related news, upcoming conventions.
  OP = Opinions
 REP = Repostings of older post like Lear, Cooper, etc..
 SCI = Scientific (preferably not pseudo) findings on UFO related issues


=== 0.3: People who post to alt.alien.visitors
----------------------------------------------
Readers and writers of a.a.v. are made up of:

A) People that have had contact.(Rarely post... obvious reasons)
B) Government paid disinformation people. (Poor to fair fiction)
C) Questioning/Inquiring minds (post questions, do research, answer
questions)
D) Wanderers (Just passing through, make snide remarks if any)
E) A few who think aliens are out there but haven't/won't come here.
F) A few who think aliens are with us know but have had no contact.
G) Aliens (Grey, life sucking, invader of utopia)
H) Guys like me that just can't unsubscribe from this group. (It's just to
   much fun. Life looks darker and things aren't very clear. (guess this
   belongs in alt.consp....) But when all else falls through pull up a.a.v.
   and smile. Someone is always a little worse off than you are and here is
   one sure fired place to find one.
I) People who are not contactees, or new-agers, or sceptics, but are simply
   interested in high-strangeness phenomenon of all sorts (and generally try
   not to post snide comments or be simple minded!)
J) Humans from parallel dimensions who are trapped in ours. (Luckily, they
   come from one w/higher tech and brought their own spacefleet. Either
   that, or they have used our tech to build some things to fight the Grays
   with, say..Orion-class pulse engines (nuclear explosions for propulsion.))
   :)

[If anyone wishes to add their humor to this list please mail me,
 but keep it clean: [e-mail]]

Main Source: [e-mail] (Rick O'leary)
Other Contributors:
[e-mail] (Kellie Matthews)
[e-mail] (Patrick Chester)

== 0.4: Common Sense Guidelines
-------------------------------
When posting to any Usenet group please follow these general guidelines.

(1)  Do not post on subjects that clearly unrelated to the newsgroup.
     Take them to the appropriate news group for discussion.

     Example: Discussion of abortion, gun control, politics and other
     strictly non related UFO should not be posted on this news group.

(2)  Do not completely repost others peoples postings and then write your
     opinion about it. Selectively edit the the post to get the information
you
     need from it to make your point. The standard symbol used to show
     information from another post is the ">".

     Example of what not to do: Repost a long section of material quoted
     from a previous article, followed by "I agree" or words to that
     effect.

== 0.5: Example Posting
-----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (John Doe)
Subject: OP: Roswell Incident
Date: Fri, 31 Apr 1992 16:54:39 GMT

In article <1597O38cc.040316.26314>[e-mail] (Ima Lier)
writes:

>.. it was in 1936 when the UFO crashed at Roswell ...
>Plus there were no witnesses!! Not a single person could be found
>to bring forth testimony.

According to my sources it happened in 1947 and lots of people saw it.
How can you say... [Etc.]
 -JD

===Terminology and Definitions Used in UFOlogy
----------------------------------------------

2.00: Astronomical Units (A.U.)
------------------------------
An A.U. is a measurement of space. One A.U. is the average distance of the
earth from the sun, about 150 million km.

2.01: a.a.v.
------------
alt.alien.visitors One of the many Usenet discussion groups.

2:02: Close Encounters (CE) & Visual Sightings
----------------------------------------------
NL (nocturnal light)
   A simple visual sighting of a unidentified flying light seen at night.

ND (nocturnal disc)
   A simple visual sighting of a unidentified flying extended or structured
   light source seen at night.

DD (daylight disc)
   A simple visual sighting of a UFO seen during the day.

Close Encounters of the first kind (CE1, CEI)
   As first defined by Hynek, a CE1 is an observation of a UFO within 150
   yards.

Close Encounters of the second kind (CE2, CEII)
    The finding of physical evidence that a alien craft or race exists.
    Example: A burn where the craft has landed or the finding of material
    of unknown makeup.

Close Encounters of the third kind (CE3, CEIII)
    A visual sighting of an alien being or race.

Close Encounters of the forth kind (CE4, CEIV)
    An abduction of an individual by an alien being or race.


Close Encounters of the fifth kind (CE5, CEV)
    A direct contact or communication with alien being or race.
    Example: Billie Meier with the Pleiadians, U.S.Govt. with the
    Greys, or channeling.

Main Source:
[e-mail] (Janet Smith)
[e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)

2:03: Marfa Lights
------------------
Marfa lights  are balls of lights that appear, change different colors
and dance around in the air.  These lights where named after the town
that they have been appearing in, Marfa Texas. They have also been sited
in other areas. Some theories as to what they are include Ball lighting,
Car headlights, and Alien space ships. The last current sighting I'm
aware of was Marfa Texas on September 1 1992.

Main Source: Sightings, FOX Network airdate September 25, 1992

2:03: Men In Black (MIB)
------------------------
These are a group of individuals who are said to wear black suits and
drive and fly around in unmarked black cars and helicopters.  They go
about  threatening people who have claimed to have seen UFOs into not
talking about what they witnessed.

The very first occurrence of MIB was traced to a man named Albert K.
Bender.  He was the editor of a flying saucer publication called the
"Space Review" In the October 1953 issue he placed an announcement
stating that he had come across information that would solve the flying
saucer mystery but they could not print it because they were ordered not
to.  They then ended the announcement warning others in saucer work to be
"very cautious"  they then stopped their publications. Later in an
interview Bender stated that "three men wearing dark suits" had ordered
him to stop publishing flying saucer material, and  that he had complied
with the order because he had been "scared to death" of them. He later
published a book called "Flying Saucers and the Three Men in Black"

Mains Source: "A Review of MIBS (Men In Black) : A History" ParaNet File
Number: 00171 Published 1991 by ParaNet Information Service

Also see: Flying Saucers and the Three Men in Black by Albert K. Bender

2:05: Tectonic Strain Theory (TST)
----------------------------------
A theory of electromagnetic effects upon the human brain and/or the
physical environment, such that all Forteana including UFOs, ghosts, ESP,
sasquatch, and religious fervour can be explained as being caused by
seismic activity generating electromagnetic radiation which in turn makes
people think they are witnesses to an anomalous event. Alternatively, the
EMM radiation can luminesce so that it appears as a UFO.  Chief
proponent: Michael Persinger. A variant is the "Earth Lights" hypothesis
described by Paul Devereux.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)

UFO
------
Unidentified Flying Object. Official term used by the Air Force.

2:06: UFOnauts
--------------
A term used by the UFO community in reference to the alien abductors or
extraterrestrials.

2:07: Unusual Ground Markings (UGM)
-----------------------------------
A broad term which includes crop circles, "tripod marks", saucer nests,
burn marks, etc.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)

2:08: USAF
----------
United States Air Force

2:09: Zine
----------
magazine or newsletter pertaining to a specific subject.
circlezine - Crop Circle publication
   ufozine - UFO publication


=== Alien Races
---------------------
These are often talked about in books, Publcations and on this discussion
group.

NI: Andromedans
---------------
These are a non-physical race of purely awesome ancient angelic beings from
the Andromeda galaxy. They ultimately are the spiritual force behind the
Ashtar command and are the leaders behind the Pleiadians and our whole
human branch of evolution! Not only that, but they are the guiding power
behind at least one other completely different branch of evolution: The
Cygnusian races - quiet, slimy, amphibian like creatures who come from
planets in the constellation Cygnus. Again, the way the Andromeda galaxy
beings are helping the beings in our own Milky Way galaxy grow, is a
macrocosmic example of how the Pleiadians civilization is helping our Earth
civilization grow.

Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.00: Arcturus
--------------
Members of Confederations of Humans [will do more research later]
The Arcturians are a very spiritual race that lives in a universe or
reality of pure love. There seems to be a gateway of some sorts at
this planet which transmits higher energies to our dimensional
universe.

Main Sources:
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Prism of Lyra

3.01: Aryans (Blondes)
----------------------
Blond Nordic Humanoids who work with the greys. Said to be captured by
the Reptoids and also have implants. They are said to have a tendency to
switch their loyalties between the Reptoids and the Confederations of
Humans.

Main Sources: A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness"
   Issue # 371

3.02: Bllues (Star Warriors)
----------------------------
The Blues are said to have translucent skin, large almond shaped eyes and
small of stature. The main issue of their teaching was PURSUE YOUR
PASSION, follow your own way, do your own thing, don't be pressured into
being anything but what and who you are.

The information about the Blues comes from Robert Morningsky a
Hopi/Apache dancer. According to Morningsky the first alien contact
started about 1947 - 1948 with the Greys contacting the U.S. Government
to form a treaty with them. Another body of Aliens arrived, called the
Blues. The Blues advised the government not to deal with the greys saying
it would only lead to disaster. They told the U.S. to follow your own
path. They said they would would teach with peace and harmony if men
would disarm and listen. The military said no deal. So they left, but a
few decided to remain and stayed in Northern Mexico and Arizona and made
a treaty with the Hopi Indians. These Aliens are known by the Hopi as
Star Warriors. The greys started monitoring the Blues. So the Blues had
to flee the reservation and go into hiding, a few of the Elders went with
them.

The Hopi legend is that there were two races, the children of the feather
who came from the skies, and the children of the reptile who came from
under the earth. The children of the reptile chased the Hopi Indians out
of the earth, these evil under-grounders were also called two hearts.

Main Source: Post from: [e-mail] (Don Allen) "FILE: Star
  Warriors",Forwarded from "contact" by Sande Van der Straten, to Cathy
  Emerson, Dated 23 Aug 1992, 19:29

Also See: American Indian Magic by Brad Steiger

NI: Centaurian
--------------
These are blond nordic types who come from Alpha Centauri. They like the
Pleiadians seek to help us grow spiritually, but they don't take as active
a role as the other races, although they do and have made contacts with
select people on Earth.

Main Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.03: Confederation of Humans (Intergalactic Confederation)
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is more often referred to as the "Intergalactic Confederation",
headed by the Ashtar Command. It consists of an organization of alien
groups born out of positive energy, that are helping the human race along
and desire to protect them.  Includes: Vega, Arcturus, Sirius, Pleiades,
Lyrians, DALs and Centaurians.

Main Sources:
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
[e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Prism of Lyra
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

NI: DALs
--------
This is a race of nordic types who come from what is called the
DAL Universe. They are a branch of the Lyrians and are very advanced
technically and spiritually; about 300-1000 years ahead of the
Pleiadians. They are helping the Pleiadians in a very similar manner
to which the Pleiadians are helping us.

Main Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.04: Greys
-----------
This is the most commonly identified alien race in UFOlogy. Their are
many different views, stories and theories regarding them ranging from
the different New Age views to the different Scientific, and conspiracy
views.

Greys as presented by the Scientific Community:
 The Greys are the most commonly described race by abduction victims. In
this view they are considered a race with an unknown motives, and
agendas. They seem to be abducting, studying, testing and using various
individuals for their one unclear reasons. [See: Abductions and Current
Theories]

Greys as presented by the New Age Movement:
  In the new age movement the Greys are often associated as an evil race,
or a race with bad energy. They are often associated with many other
races, such as the Reptoids and their motives are known.

Greys as presented by Different Conspiracy Theories
  The different conspiracy theories are often a mix of the scientific and
new age views. The standard conspiracy base states that the Greys crashed
one or more of their space ships and they were found by the U.S.
Government. The Government them makes a secret treaty with the Greys
allowing them to abduct humans in exchange for their technology. The
conspiracy theories often end with the Greys not keeping their part of
the deal. [I will try and include some of the different conspiracy
theories when I have more time to research them in detail]

Their are descriptions of several types of Greys: they are all humanoid in
appearance, a head, main body, two arms, hands, legs, and feet.

1: The most commonly seen grey is around two to four feet tall, very
slender and delicate looking, small beings and light weight, extremely
penetrating black slanted eyes with no pupils, almost vestigial mouth
and nose, a very large head with a pointed chin. The skin color varies
from dark grey to light grey, tan to tanish grey, white to pale white.
They have no hair on their bodies.

2: Another commonly seen Grey is described similarly as above, except
their usually six inches taller, and seem to give the orders. A variation
of this same described individual is: same as above except eyes like big
black buttons and are rounded.

3: Another type of Grey are the small robot like beings, stocky and
little, with smooth rounded hat on top, with dark deep set holes for eyes
and a round O shaped mouth, square breastplate with concentric circles on
it, smell like burnt match heads, mushroom grey skin. These Greys are
often said to act like security guards.

Other variations are described as Reptilian like with claws an preying
mantis like. There have also been many report of cross breeds that are
not exactly human and not exactly Greys.

Main Sources:
Secret Life, by David M. Jacobs
Communion, by Whitley Strieber
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371

Also See:
Missing Time, by Budd Hopkins
Intruders, by Budd Hopkins
Bashar: Blueprint for Change; a Message from our future.

NI: Lyrians
-----------
This is the very ancient parent race from which our entire
branch of human or humanoid races emerged, including all the nordic
types, the Orions, and even the Greys. Quite warlike in the infancy of
their civilization, they gradually improved their ways and are now
technically and spiritually at about the level of the Pleiadians.

Main Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Prism of Lyra
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.05: Orion Empire (Orion forces)
---------------------------------
The "Orions" are made up of two opposed races. The "Council of Light" was
one based at the star system Betelgeuse, and the equally powerful evil
Orions were based at the star system Rigel. The Orions took over lots of
planets back in our galaxy's less spiritual days but were always balanced
by the Intergalactic Confederation.

The conquering part of Orion empire was defeated 200,000 years ago
by the Intergalactic Confederation, and they haven't been a threat to
Earth since. They are presently getting ready to "transform into the
4th dimension" just as we of Earth are. In fact, some people on Earth
are reincarnated Orions who are here to integrate their negativity and
hence allow both our worlds to ascend.

Main Sources:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
EL*AN*RA: the Healing of Orion, By Solara of Star-Borne
Bashar: Blueprint for Change; a Message from our future.
The Prism of Lyra

3.06: Pleiadians
----------------
The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star system
Pleiades. They are also from various times in our future, starting from
500 years from now to millions of years from now. The Pleiadian culture
is ancient and was "seeded" from another universe of love long before
Earth was created. They have formed a tremendous society which operates
with love, with ideas and ideals that we are yet unfamiliar with.

The Pleiadians started a project to contact and inspire earth humans to
take back their power and create a better reality for themselves. They
are here as ambassadors from another universe to help Earth through her
transition from the third dimension to the fourth dimension and to assist
each of us in our personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and
knowing. As this project has become more successful, more ETs have
joined the group, some from other systems. The group later changed its
name from Pleiadians to the Pleiadians Plus.

The Pleiadians say that their reasons for contacting us is that there is
a chance of tyranny in the future and they are coming back to inspire us
as much as possible so we will take charge of creating our own reality
and change the future.
   They teach a very empowering form of personal and social metaphysics,
with love and clarity. The Pleiadians speak as a collective and there are
no individuals identified. They do not appear in physical form although
they say they can. They say it is safer to come through the channel,  and
it does not attract as much attention.


Billie Meier's Contact from the Pleiades
Billie Meier was contacted over 130 times between 1976 and 1982 by a
female named Samjese who said she was from the star system Pleiades. She
was the first to telepathically contact Meier and tell him where to go
for the first physical contact. Meier had indepth conversations with
Samjese. The contact notes are published in following four books and are
out of print:

UFO ... Contact from the Pleiades Vol I & II Photo Journals (Vol I is in
        its second printing.)
UFO ... Contact from the Pleiades Prilimary Investigation Report
UFO ... Contact from the Pleiades Supplementary Investigation Report
Message From the Pleiades Vol 1 & 2 Light Years

There are 4 videos available on the Pleiades case.
Contact        $59.
The Beamship Trilogy   $99.
The videos are available from:
Genesis III Publishing, P.O. Drawer JJ, Munds Park, AZ 86017
[Also see: The Pleiades Project]

There is also a book available called Bringers of the Dawn - Teachings
from the Pleiadians by Barbara Marciniak.  They also have 2 to 3 hundred
tapes available.

Main source:
Information given by [e-mail]
Connecting Link Magazine Pleiadian article, Channeled by Barbara Marciniak

Also See:
Out on a Limb, by Shirley MacLaine

3.07: Sirius
-------------
Members of Confederations of Humans [will do more research later]
They are a watery, dreamy race who are basically an evolved version of
dolphins and whales, somewhat. They are said to live in the Christ
consciousness, and are in a solar system very linked with our own in a
psychic manner. They too play a role in helping Earth, but they are doing
it from a more subtle standpoint, like through the cetaceans in our seas.

Source:

Main Source:
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Rays and the Initiations from the Theosophical society & "Bashar"

Also See: Prism of Lyra

3.08: Reptoids
---------------
A reptilian race from Draco bent on conquest,  They are said to be
controling the greys by means of an implant, the same one that the gray
are implanting into humans.  They are also said to be the master minds
behind the abduction plans. Their master plan involves using the newly
created 'Half-breeds' with implants to defeat the Confederations of
Humans. The Reptoids also use humans as food.  [Does this remind you of
the movie V?]

Main Source: A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness"
  Issue # 371


3.09: Vega
----------
Members of Confederations of Humans [will do more research later]

Main Source: A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness"
  Issue # 371


=== Abductions and Current Theories
-----------------------------------
4.00: About Abductions
----------------------
There are many people who believe they have been abducted by UFOnauts.
These abduction victims often experience memory loss and "missing time".
some of them have been able to recall their abductions from memory and
others have recalled their abductions by the aid of hypnosis. Often these
encounters involve being taken aboard an alien craft and examined by the
UFOnauts and put through a variety of physical and mental procedures.
Then the individuals are returned. Many of the abduction victims has
shown signs of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Some of the major researchers who have studied the abduction field
include Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mach, Philip Klass, and Jenny
Randles.

There are several groups with distinct opinions. The dyed-in-the-wool
Skeptics, who who don't believe it. Others who are passing no verdict, but
are still examining  the evidence. Those who believe due to the
similarities of the abduction testimonies. Those who claim to have
information through means such as channeling. Those who claim to have had
first-person experiences, with automatic conscious recall. Those who
claim to have had first-person experiences, with recall under hypnotic
regression.

The opinions of some skeptics such as Klass believe that the hypnotists
themselves are leading the abduction victims unknowingly into believing
that they have had an abduction experience. The skeptics believe that the
the media has been saturated so much with the abduction material that when
people having nightmares or people who believe that they have experienced
the "missing time" are put under hypnosis, they draw upon what they have
seen in the media to fulfill the expectations of the hypnotist and
causes themselves to be put trough the trauma for that reason. They say
the nightmares are often caused by the sleeping disorder narcolepsy, and
the "missing time" is not an uncommon experience and is caused when the
mind is preoccupied by other matters. They often give the advice to go to
clinical doctors, and not to contact an abductionist.

Other researchers such as Jacobs and Hopkins believe that there is
something physical causing the abduction experiences. Hobkins has stated
that he believes that the abduction are real and that the recounts of the
abductions are to similar to each other to be anything but the truth.
Jacobs takes a slightly different approach, he has been categorizing all
the accounts and trying to find patterns in the testimonies. Through this
method he come up with new more indepth theories regarding the
abductions. [I'll give these late when I have time]

The Channelers believe that the abductions are part of a battle between
good energy forces and evil energy forces. [See Reptoids, Greys and
Pleiadians]

There people on the net who believe they have had personal experiences
with Alien contacts or abductions. Some have posted accounts of their
experiences. Many others decline to post due to attacks by skeptics.

There has been possible material evidence of UFOs or Alien contacts. There
are abundant material traces, even excepting those confiscated by the
military. Material traces include burned grass and earth where UFOs have
landed, UFOs shown on radar tapes, UFOs on film and in photos. Bodily
traces on abductees include scoop-marks in the flesh, incisions, burns,
apparent radiation exposure, bruises, inflammation, etc. Whether any of
these is considered *evidential*, however, is a subjective value call.

For anyone who is interested in abduction help call:

  Bill Knell
  Director of Island Skywatch
  [phone] (New York)

He can get you in touch with the right people in your area and has a lot
of videos, tapes and books on UFOs and abductions. He is also a very
experienced researcher/investigator.

Main Sources:
UFO-Abductions: A Dangerous Game, by Philip Klass
Secret Life, by David M. Jacobs
Communion, by Whitley Strieber
[e-mail] (Denise Solis)
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371

Also See:
Missing Time, by Budd Hopkins
Intruders, by Budd Hopkins
Alien Abductions: Mystery Solved by Jenny Randiles


=== UFOlogists
--------------
5:00: Hopkins, Bud
------------------
Bud Hopkins graduated from Oberlin college. He is also a painter and
sculptor. He has been investigating UFO report for the lat 12 years.

Bud Hopkins c/o Random House
201 E. 50th Street
New York, NY 10022

5:01: Jacobs, Dr David
----------------------
David Jacobs is an Associate Professor of History at temple University.
He has worked with over 300 UFO abduction witnesses. He works closely
with a number of other abduction researchers including Budd Hopkins.
Dr. Jacobs moderates an abduction conference on ParaNet, and is accessible
via their dial-up BBS node (303-431-8797) or on Internet through a list
server. [See ParaNet]

Dr. David Jacobs
Department of History
Temple University
Philadelphia, Pa 19122

NI: Howe, Linda Moulton
-----------------------
Producer, director, writer, etc. of films, videos, and scripts, including
"A Strange Harvest", a documentary on the 'cattle mutilation' phenomenon
(and a book, "An Alien Harvest"). She is the "concept" person for the Fox
TV show "Sightings" (credited at the end of each show.)

Linda Moulton Howe Productions
3208 East Fremont Dr.
Littleton, CO 80122

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

5:02: Klass, Philip J.
----------------------
For thirty-five years a senior editor with Aviation Week and Space
Technology magazine, is recognized as the world's leading skeptical
authority in Unidentified Flying Objects and has written three books on
the subject. Klass, a graduate electrical engineer, is a founding Fellow
of the Committeee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal. He was honored in 1973 for his accuracy as a techjournalist
by being named a Fellow at the Institute of Electrical and Electronics
Engineers.

Main Source: The about the author paragraph inUFO-Abductions: A Dangerous
  Game, by Philip Klass, C1988

5:03: Marciniak, Barbara J.
---------------------------
Barbara J. Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from
North Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. The strength and purity of
the message she is bringing very quickly captured the hearts of many
seekers looking to be all that they can be. Barbara has channeled at
various Expos and for groups across the United States, in Peru and in
Germany.

You may contact Barbara at:
Bold Connections                Connecting Link Magazine
P. O. Box 6521,                 9392 Whitneyville Rd.
Raleigh, NC 27628.              Alto, MI. 49302-9694

5:04: Randles, Jenny
--------------------
Jenny Randles
37 Hasthbank Road
Stockport, Cheshire SK3 0UP

5.05: Stringfield, Leonard H.
-----------------------------
Long-time researcher and author of a number of UFO crash/retrieval
books, which provide excellent source material. Formerly Director of
International UFO research organization CRIFO (Civilian Research,
Interplanetary Objects - a large UFO organization of the mid-1950's)
1953-57, published "Orbit", the CRIFO monthly newsletter. Served in USAAC
5th AF in intellence and counter-intelligence unit in WWII
(Pacific theater); worked cooperatively with USAF (as civilian) in 1954-57
to screen UFO reports in Ohio/Kentucky/Indiana area; Public Relations
Advisor for NICAP, 1957-1970; served on MUFON board of directors, currently
Research Specialist (crash/retrieval) for MUFON.

Leonard H. Stringfield
4412 Grove Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45227, USA

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

5.06: Vallee, Jacques
---------------------
Longtime UFO researcher, prolific writer, and computer scientist. He was
a leader of (and later retreated from) the "fairie" explainations of UFO's
(that is, that whatever they were, they were from the same source as
legends about supernatural, "magical" creatures) in the 1970's, and has
more recently written that extraterrestrial-only explainations for UFO's may
be biasing inquiry.

Vallee, Jacques
1550 California St. #6L
San Franciscom CA 94109

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 1 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (fis)
Subject: JW
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:37:53 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 10

I suggest we have a whip round so that we can hire someone to pay a visit
to Mr J Winston.

On their arrival their duty would be to shove the largest object in the
vicinity down his THROAT!

JOHN - YOU'RE DOING OUR HEADS IN, AND WE WISH YOU WERE DEAD.

[e-mail]

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [Part 2 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 11/20/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
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                             (Part 2 of 4)


=== UFO Projects & Theories & Controversies
--------------------------------------------

6.00: Aurora Project or "deep black" projects
----------------------------------------------
The "Black Projects" are governmental projects that are considered
technological secrets. These can range from laser and particle beams to
top secret aircraft. The "Aurora Project" is the name given to one of
these types of projects by the industry experts involving two new types
of reported aircraft. These aircraft where observed in the south west US
and are said to have been developed at highly classified government
facilities in the Nevada desert. There are two types of advanced aircraft
reported.

One is nick named the "Pulser" aircraft. There have been many sights of
this aircraft by several different  witnesses. When sighted it has
repetitively been described as "A high-speed aircraft characterized by a
very loud, deep, rumbling engine noise (1-2 Hz pulse rate) reminiscent of
heavy-lift rockets."  The smoke trail of the aircraft is described as
being segmented and in a linked sausage shape. (Or another good example
would be to look at one side of your coat zipper, un-zipped, with the
teeth facing you) It is also described as a high-altitude aircraft that
crossed the sky at extremely high speeds. Both ground based and airborne
observers have reported it to be seen flying at altitudes above 50,000
ft. observers have reported see the aircraft as a single bright light
that seldom changed direction, however speed changes where observed. One
observer estimated that it covered 350 miles in 6 minutes. (3500
miles/hr)


This this aircraft may indeed exist. There has been research in to what
are called Pulsed Detonation Engines (PED's) also refereed to as Pulsed
Detonation Wave Engines. These are different type of engine than the
pulse jet engines, which is already publicly know, and has been tested in
aircraft. The PED's are said to be in laboratory and computer analysis
level of development (reported oct of 91) The PED's exhaust emission
produces smoke trails that closely match the pulser aircraft. Simulations
of theses engines are said to be able to propel large aircraft in the
"Mach 0.2-3.0 flight regime"

How PED's work: PED's use shock waves created in a detonation to compress
the fuel-oxidizer mixture prior to combustion. A cylinder chamber
designed to support the detonation is constructed with a flat forward end
which makes up the thrust wall. Air along with fuel is fed into the
engine from behind the thrust-wall. The detonation wave created travels
forward to the thrust wall at about Mach 4 and compresses the fuel-air
mixture, promotes supersonic combustion and causes a pressure rise in the
engine. The wave then strikes the thrust wall and rebounds accelerating
the combustion products towards the nozzle. Some of the products are
ejected by the wave to the outside air-stream through the air inlet
openings creating a toroidal vortex out side the engine. Then the cycle
repeats.

The said advantages of this type of engine are:
* Theoretically a higher fuel efficiency than a "constant pressure engine"
* Engines can be produced in many sizes and thrust outputs from a few
  inches in diameter at a thrust of several pounds to  larger one that can
  output in the thousands of pounds range.
* They have high thrust to weight ratio (ie.lighter engine, more thrust)
* They are mechanically simple, and have few moving parts.
* They could operate in or out of the atmosphere using fuel oxidizers.


There is very little information on the other reported aircraft. It is
reported as "A triangular-shaped, quiet aircraft". This craft has been
seen by many observers and flying with several F-117 stealth aircraft.


Main Sources:
Aviation Week & Space Technologies, (Oct 1, 90 pp20-23) &
  (oct 28, 91 pp68-69)

Also See:
Aviation Week & Space Technologies [please note: one of these dates is a
December 24, 1990 pg. 41-44         couple days off, on the actual
June 20,     1991 pg. 20-21         magazine date.]
March 9,     1992 pg. 66-67
May 11,      1992 pg. 62-63

6.02: NASA Footage September 10th
---------------------------------
Space Ice or an alien craft dodging a missile. That's the big debate on
the footage taken by an unmanned camera on the space shuttle. One side
says that it is space Ice accelerated by the space shuttles thrusters.
The other side says the excelleration of some the objects don't follow
the correct paths don't match physics. They speculate its a alien craft
dodging a Starwars missile.

Main source: Sightings, FOX Network, airdate September 25, 1992

6.03: Planetoid (Wormwood)
--------------------------
Beyond Pluto astronomers believe there is a ring of ice chunks circling
the solar system 37 to 59 A.U. from the sun. They have called the ice
belt the Kuiper belt. Beyond that astronomers say there is a similarly
composed Oort cloud which forms a sphere around our planetary system that
stretches two light years in distance. A tiny red spot of light was
recorded in hawaii in October of 92,  which is thought to be the first
component of the Kuiper belt ever observed. The object was named 1992 QB1.
It is about 200 km across and 5.1 billion km away from the sun (41.2
a.u.). The object is fairly red, suggesting a surface rich in organics.
The current position is, for 0h UT on September 15, 1992:  0h 00.09+0d
01'.7 (2000.0). It is moving retrograde at only 3" per hour. David Jewitt
and Jane Luu discovered it using the University of Hawaii's 2.2-meter
telescope on Mauna Kea.  They have been searching for such an object for
the last five years. The first images were secured August 30, but just as
with the discovery of Pluto in 1930 the discovery was kept "under wraps"
for awhile to allow a better assessment. Jewitt believes it to be one of
the larger members of the Kuiper belt. Jewitt says that it will take two
months to confirm the object.

Another theory involving the planetoid comes to us from channelers. It is
a hollowed out body that was moved here by the Reptoids, in order to
transport an army of Grays or Reptoids. [sorry, I'm not sure which, I
haven't had a chance to research this in-depth] It is now  parked outside
the orbit of Pluto.  It is currently being used as a base by the
Reptoids.

Then there is also the theory that the planetoid may be the star that is
mentioned in the Bible as "Wormwood" (also translated as "bitterness");
which when the "third angel" in the book of Revelation blew his trumpet,
fell to the earth and poisoned one third of the earths waters.  Another
interesting fact is that "chernobyl" (as in the Nuclear power plant in
"Russia" that had a meltdown) in Ukranian also means Wormwood.

Main Source:
"Beyond Pluto" by MichaaelD. Lemonick, p. 59, Time Magazine Sep. 28, 92
"#Object beyond Pluto", Compuserve article #110734 S14/News/Current Events
  by Roger Sinnott, 14-Sep-92
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
Bible,  Revelation chapter 8 Verses 10 & 11


6.04: Project Blue Book
-----------------------
On Sep 30 ,1947  Lt General Twining of ACM expressed his opinion that there
was sufficient substance in reports to warrant a study on UFOs. On Dec.
23,1947 Project Sign was established to collect, collate, evaluate, and
disseminate all information concerning UFO sightings and phenomena.
Project sign completed it evaluations in Feb of 1949 and concluded "No
definite and conclusive evidence is yet available that would prove or
disprove the existence of these UFOs as real aircraft of unknown and
unconventional configuration." Project Sign was changed to Project Grudge
on Dec.16, 1948. Project Grudge recommended that the investigation and
study of UFO reports be reduce in scope. In early 1950 UFO reports by the
public increased. This prompted Project Grudge to be changed to Project
Blue Book in march of 1952.

Project Blue Book goals were to find out:
1: To find an explanation for all the reported sighting of UFO's.
2: To determine if the UFO posed any security threat to the United States.
3: To determine if UFO's exhibit any advanced technology which the U.S.
   could Utilize.

When the project ended the Air Force concluded:
1: There is no evidence that any UFOs are "extraterrestrial vehicles"
2: No UFO has ever given any indication of a threat to the national
   security.
3: There is no evidence that UFO's represent technological developments
   or principals beyond present-day scientific knowledge.

You can get the project Blue Book papers from Any Federal Repository which
has copies of National Archives material (there are various scattered
around the country). Or, you can go to the National Archives in
Washington, DC. They're on microfilm, like the Census records that
genealogists use.

[I will finish researching this later, I had to return the book before I
 was done. :-(]

Main Source:
Project Blue Book: The Top Secret UFO Findings Revealed,
  By Brad Steiger, 1976
[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)

6.05: Roswell Crash Incident
----------------------------
  The Roswell Incident started with sightings of UFOs on June 24, 1947. In
July 2,  of the sane year Mac Brazel heard a loud crash.  The next day he
went out Horseback riding with a neighbor and came upon a field with
debris scattered about.

 The debris field was 3/4 of a mile long and 300 feet wide. It was
oriented in a northwest to southeast direction.  There was a gouge in the
northwest side of the debris field that was 500 feet long and 10 feet
wide.  The debris on the field mostly consisted of I-beams and parchment
like, paper thin pieces of metal material. The material was very light in
weight, a dull gray in color, and most pieces were 6 to 7 inches in
length.  Some pieces that were even thinner that paper could not be
broken in half,  cut or burned.
  Mac Brazel collected several pieces of the debris and went back to his
ranch.  On July 6,  Brazel went into Roswell to report what he had seen
and to show a piece of the debris to sheriff Wilcox. The sheriff decided
to call the local air base. During this time Frank Joyce called in from
the local radio station to see if anything newsworthy was happening
around town. Brazel gave him the information about what he had found.
  Major Jesse A. Marcel and a few other military personal arrived from
the base only a few minutes after the sheriff had finished  talking to
the people at the base.  Brazel and the military personal left and went
back to the Ranch. The next morning (July 7) they went to the crash
sight. The military retrieved some of the debris and returned to Roswell.
  On July 8, the military came back and sealed off the area, They took
Brazel into custody.  That same day they found a second crash sight two
and 1/2 miles southeast of the first.  Barney Barnett and 4
archaeologists  had stumbled onto the new sight a few minutes before the
military had gotten there.  At the sight was found a "pretty good sized
metallic dull gray object" and 4 small alien bodies. They were 4 to 5
feet tall,  with large pair shaped heads, small bodies and skinny arms
and legs.  They had two large eyes,  no ears and no hair. Their skin was
pinkish grey and leathery.  They were wearing a one piece grey suits. The
civilians were escorted out of the area when the military arrived.

  On July 9th the military escorted Brazel to the radio station , there
he told Frank Joyce that he saw a weather balloon. He left again with the
military and didn't get back to his ranch until around July 15.  Later
when asked about what had happened Brazel said he had given a oath and
could not talk about it.
  The Incident remained closed and the public and  UFO research
organizations at large accepted the weather balloon story until 1970 when
Jesse A.  Marcel broke the silence and told his part in the story.

Main source: UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin D. Randle & Donald R. Schmitt
  Published 1991 by Avon Books

=== UFO Movies, Documentaries and TV Programs
--------------------------------------------
= 7.00: TV Programs
------------
7.01: E. T. Monitor (the Keystone Inspirational Network)
--------------------------------------------------------
   - A program that originates from Pennsylvania, it has a pre-recorded
and a live section. The person who runs it sells packets of books by
mail-order. He likes to think that he is presenting irrefutable proof not
only of the existence of UFOs but also of the Government's Conspiracy to
keep them secret and frequently features people like Randall Terry.

Main Source: [e-mail]

NI: Arthur C. Clark's Mysterious World (Discovery channel)
----------------------------------------------------------
   - an early 1980's half-hour show hosted by the man himself. The show
was similar to "In Search Of", in theme and content, a few of which covered
UFO's.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.02: Hard Copy (??)
--------------------
   - Belgian UFO's, 1990
   - more European

NI: In Search Of (A&E)
----------------------
  - a late 1970's half-hour show, currently in syndication
(on A&E, right now), hosted by Leonard Nimoy.  Each show took on a
different unusual phenomenon, and gave a thumbnail sketch of the story of
it.  The show's format was decidedly non-sceptical, with lines like "could
it be that <'believer' side>?"  and "some believe that <believer side>".
UFO-related shows include "UFO", "UFO Australia", "UFO Captives", "Earth
Visitors", and several others, along with various non-UFO things -- Loch
Ness Monster, Bigfoot, Killer Bees, Atlantis, Reincarnation, DB Cooper,
Shroud of Turin, and some fairly mundane things - Tornados, Volcanos, and
Earthquakes.  The Fox network show "Sightings" is very similar in theme,
but often devotes significantly less time to a given subject.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.04: National Geographic (PBS)
-------------------------------
   - English Crop Circles, 1991

7.05: sightings (FOX)
---------------------
   - Crop circles 1992
   - Mexico video Sightings, Sept 11, 1992
   - NASA Shuttle UFO/(debated Ice chunk), July? 1992

7.07: Unsolved Mysteries (NBC)
------------------------------
   - Eupen, Belgium UFO, 1991
   - Cash/Landrum UFO, 1990
   - 1965 Kecksburg, PA  UFO, 1990
   - Widthville, W VA UFO, 1992

= 7.08: UFO Videos, Movies, Documentaries
-----------------------------------------
NI: The Bermuda Triangle
------------------------
   - (1975) Based on Charles Berlitz's book of the same name. Something of
a rambling discourse, which touches on the Bermuda Triangle, UFO's, the
"Philadelphia Experiment".  (A later "Nova" episode of the same name
answers a lot of the BT stuff.)

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: Chariots of the Gods
------------------------
   - (1974) based on Eric von Daniken's book.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.09: Close Up
--------------
    - interview w/ two Rhode Island UFO enthusiasts 885-0366, 1992
      MUFON Box 1122, Davisville, RI  02854

7.10: Communion
---------------
    -Based off the book Communion bu Whitley Strieber

NI: Disappearance of Flight 412
-------------------------------
   - (1974, non-documentary) Glenn Ford as a USAF officer who stumbles
across a secret USAF project to study UFO's.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: Endangered Species
----------------------
  - (1982, non-documentary) Robert Urich stumbles across the
cattle-mutilation phenomenon, and a secret government unit studying it.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: Hangar 18
-------------
  - (1980, non-documentary) NASA studies a crashed UFO at "Hangar 18",
which malign governmental forces wish to destroy.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

MD: Intruders
---------------
    - CBS miniseries June? 1992,
      Based off Budd Hopkins book Intruders

NI: Mysteries from Beyond Earth
-------------------------------
   - (1975) rambling documentary of UFOs, witchcraft, Bermuda Triangle,
psychic healing, etc...

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: UFO
-------
    - (1956) the first UFO documentary, including real UFO footage from
the early 1950's.  A good introduction into the UFO phenomenon up until
that time.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: UFOs are Real
-----------------
    - (1979) Well-above-average compilation of UFO film and photos, along
with some additional information, e.g. the 1973 Coyne helicopter encounter,
Gordon Cooper's letter to the UN in 1973, Billy Meier, and interviews with
Wendell Stevens, Bruce Macabee, Stanton Friedman, Ted Phillips, Jesse Marcel
(and the major points of the Roswell crash), Travis Walton, Betty Hill,
Marjorie Fish, and James Harder.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.11: UFO Coverup Live
----------------------
    - UFO film from Guatemala, 1988
      (Note from [e-mail]: most convincing footage I've seen)

7.12: UFO Documentary
---------------------
    - Jesse Marcel interview, 1982

MD: UFO Incident, The
-----------------------
   - NBC Oct 20, 1975,
   - the Betty Hill abduction story Based on the book "Interrupted
Journey: Two lost hours aboard a flying saucer" by John Fuller

7.13: UFO, The Films Prove It
-----------------------------
    -A melange of television tapes, 1992

NI: Visitors from the Unknown
-----------------------------
    - (1991) A CBS documentary on several abductions, including the 1975
Travis Walton case, the 1980 Alan Godfrey case, and the 1988 John Salter
(and his son) case.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

=== UFO Magazines and Publications (UFOzines)
---------------------------------------------
[I will include the magazines from the UFO groups later]

8.00: The Circular
------------------
58 Kings Rd., West
End, Woking, Surrey GU24 9LW, England

8.01: The Cerealogist
---------------------
20 Paul St., Frome, Somerset,
BA11 1DX, England

8.02: Connecting Link Magazine
------------------------------
Connecting Link Magazine
9392 Whitneyville Rd.
Alto, MI. 49302-9694

8.03: CONTINUUM
---------------
The official news magazine for ParaNet and MICAP. It is published quarterly
and provides thought-provoking information and articles written by leading
UFOlogists. This magazine provides global insight and reflects material
carried over the world-wide ParaNet Information Service network.
Subscriptions are $18.00/year and are available by sending checks for U.S.
funds to:  ParaNet, Box 172, Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172.

8.04: The Crop Watcher
---------------------
3 Selborne Court, Tavistock Close, Romsey, Hampshire, SO517TY, England

8.05: Earth
-----------
61 Ran elagh, Ave., Bradford, BD10 0HF, UK.

8.06: The Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  The Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
(EJASA) is published monthly by the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic,
Incorporated.  The ASA is a non-profit organization dedicated to the
advancement of amateur and professional astronomy and space exploration,
as well as the social and educational needs of its members.

ASA membership application is open to all with an interest in astronomy
and space exploration.  Members receive the Journal of the ASA  and the
Astronomical League's REFLECTOR magazine. Members may also purchase
discount subscriptions to ASTRONOMY and SKY & TELESCOPE magazines.

For information on membership, you may contact the Society at any of the
following addresses:

Astronomical Society of the Atlantic (ASA)
c/o Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy (CHARA)
Georgia State University (GSU)
Atlanta, Georgia  30303, U.S.A.
Phone: [phone] leave your address and/or receive the latest
                      Society news.
Internet:
[e-mail]

Modem:
ASA BBS: [phone], 300/1200/2400 Baud.

Back issues of the EJASA are also available from anonymous FTP at:
chara.gsu.edu (131.96.5.29)

8.07: The Faithist Journal
--------------------------
Kosmon Publishing
2324 Suffock Avenue
Kingman, Arizona 86401
 C. Benfield (President)
Kasandra Kares (Editor)
Publication is The Faithist Journal
Founded  in 1970
A non-profit organization which publishes "The Faithist Journal"
(Bi-Monthly), magazines and books dealing with New Age topics, including
UFOs.

8.08: Focus
-----------
William L. Moore Publications & Research
See: Fair Witness Project, Inc.
4219 West Olive Avenue Suite #247
Burbank, California 91505
Williarn L. Moore
213-463-0542
Publishing entity for Antares Publishing, The Fair Witness Project, Inc.,
and "Focus" magazine (which specializes in UFOs, New Age, Metaphysical, and
Occult research; offers a substantial listing of books, government document
reprints, papers, pamphlets, back issues of George Van Tassel's
"Proceedings of the College of Universal Wisdom" newsletter, research
files, folios, back issues of "Focus" (the Fair Witness Project
newsletter), cassette tapes, and video tapes for sale.Discounts on various
items are available to booksellers and other qualifie buyers."Focus"
subscribers are entitled to a 25% discount on all items

8.09: Fortean Times
-------------------
1 Shoebury Road, London E6 2AQ UK.

8.10: Inner Light
-----------------
Inner Light Publications
Box 753 New Brunswick,
New Jersey 08903 Publications
Timothy Green Beckley (Publisher & Editor)
Publication is Inner Light
A diverse entity which publishes numerous UFO-related books, periodicals,
tapes, etc., "UFO Review" magazine and the monthly "Inner Light" magazine;
also sponsors numerous UFO conferences and symposiums throughout the United
States.

8.11: International UFO Library Magazine
----------------------------------------
11684 Ventura Blvd. #708 Studio City, CA 91604.

8.12: Magonia
-------------
5 James Terrace, London SW14 8HB, UK.

8.13: Orvotron Newsletter
-------------------------
orvotron bi-monthly newsletter
Solinus and Kortron

We are  pleased to send a "Love Copy" of the most current newsletter to
anyone you think will be interested. Just pass your friend's name and
address on to us and we will mail out the issue compliments of you. Back
issues contain much information which is still relevant and may provide
some clarity on subjects discussed in subsequent newsletters. Love
donations (which should be made payable to Judith A. Wells) are greatly
appreciated and go to Spirit's work to create Heaven on Earth.

 A subscription also entitles you to log-on the Spirit Bulletin Board
Service, a computer/modem system with files  on alternate energy,
UFO/extraterrestrial happenings, politics, science, medical information,
the conspiracy and much more. The files are updated frequently and we
encourage you to use and contribute to this "library at your fingertips".
You may access this information 24 hours a day by calling via computer
1-704-297-5973.

For a year's subscription (six bimonthly issues) and userstatus on
Spirit BBS please send $30.00 (USA) or $40.00 (all other countries)
in check or money order (no cash please) made payable to:

Judith A. Wells           Phone   - [phone]
Route 2, Box 309B         FidoNet - 1:379/703
Vilas, NC  28692          BBS     - 704-297-5973

       ,
8.14: Ovni Presence
-------------------
CP 342, CH-1800, Vevey 1, Switzerland.

8.15: Revelations of Awareness
------------------------------
"Revelations of Awareness" published by Cosmic Awareness Communications
(CAC).

Revelations of Awareness is a Newsletter that covers UFO as they relate
to channeling and the New Age movement.  All the information given in the
newsletter is information recorded from channeling sessions. The format
of of the news letter begins with a question asked of the Cosmic
Awareness, then replies are given by the Awareness through the rest of
the news letter starting out with the phrase "This Awareness indicates..."

The following Statement appears at the top of every Issue:

Cosmic Awareness is the force that expressed Itself through Jesus of
Nazareth, the Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Edgar Cayce and other great
avatars who served as 'Channels' for the 'Heavenly Father' and who speaks
again today as the world begins to enter the 'New Age' of spiritual
consciousness and awareness. Since 1963 Cosmic Awareness has been
communicating through carefully trained channels. This information is for
those who desire to help in bringing in the new age. Throughout the
thousands of 'Readings' given through these various channels, Cosmic
Awareness tells us not to believe anything, but to question, explore,
doubt, and discover for yourself, through your own channel what is the
truth. Cosmic Awareness will only 'indicate' and 'suggest'. Neither C.A.C
or any of the Interpreters is responsible for anything Cosmic Awareness
states in any of these readings, nor does C.A.C. or the Interpreters
necessarily agree with the statements of Cosmic Awareness. The
interpreters interpret the energies as they see them in trance levels and
are not personally responsible for what is said. This is entirely the
responsibility of the editor. Members of C.A.C. are invited to send in
questions of general interest to ask Awareness for possible publication
in this newsletter.

Paul Shockley, Interpreter.

The Revelations of Awareness comes out every three weeks The memberships
which are available (using the Honer system) are:
Limited Income $30 per year   $9 quarterly
Individual     $42 per year   $12 quarterly
Family         $52 per year   $20 quarterly
Contributing   $77 per year   $25 quarterly
Sponsoring     $144 per year  $40 quarterly
Benefactor     $500 per year  $150 quarterly
Patron         $1000 per year $250 quarterly
Endowing       $5000 per year $1500 quarterly

Outside USA Add $15.00 per year to cover postage (including Canada)
To send off for information about the C.A.C. or to subscribe to their
news letter write to: Cosmic Awareness Communications
                      P.O. Box 115
                      Olympia, WA 98507

8.16: Swamp Gas Journal
-----------------------
The Swamp Gas Journal Covers a variety of scientific UFO related Phenomena.
It reviews articles, books and research publications put out by different
researchers and organizations.

The Swamp Gas Journal is free with limited distribution, but is available
primarily through zine exchanges, regularly contributing Fortean info, or
by providing two (2) International Postal Reply Coupons in lieu of a
subscription (to cover postage).

The Swamp Gas Journal is a ufozine published irregularly by:

Ufology Research of Manitoba
Box 1918
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Canada   R3C 3R2

The SGJ is also available on an experimental basis on internet by e-mail
to: [e-mail]

8.17: UFO Universe
------------------
GCR Plublishing Group, Inc.
1700 Broadway, 34th Floor
New York, New York 10019
Publishes "UFO Universe" magazine.
Global Communications Refer to: Inner Light Publications

=== UFO Book Publishers
-----------------------
9.00: Advent Publishing Company
-------------------------------
P.O. Box 3748
Carson City, NV  89702
Publish book and the Phenox Project Reports.

9.02: Arnerica West Publishers
------------------------------
P.O. Box 6451 Tehachapi, California 93582
George Green Telephone Number : 805-822-9655
Publishes a wide variety of books and tapes dealing with New Age subjects
and UFO phenomenon.

9.03: Arcturus Book Service
---------------------------
1443 S.E. Port St. Lucie Blvd.
Port St. Lucie, Florida 34952, USA
Robert Girard & Monica Williams-Girard

Arcturus Book Service Catalog
Maintains a listing of UFO-related books. Their goal is to provide a wide
selection of books relating to the study of unexplained phenomena. Arcturus
provides a publication; "Leading Edge, the bi-monthly newsletter of the
Nevada Aerial Research Group.
Subscriptions for monthly Arcturus Book Service Catalog available for $6.00
in the U.S.,
Canada, and Mexico; $12.00 in Europe and South America
Arcturus pays for UFO-related books, manuscripts and is interested in being
informed of all new titles released.

9.04: Condor Books, Inc.
------------------------
351 West 54th Street
New York, New York 10019
Al Weiss (Publisher)
212-586 -4432
Publishes numerous books dealing with the UFO phenomena. At one time,
Condor Books published "UFO Universe" magazine;"UFO Universe" is now
published by:
GCR Publishing Group, Inc.,
1700 Broadway, 34th Floor,
New York, New York 10019.

9.05: Document Research Services
--------------------------------
PO Box 10011
Berkeley,  Ca. 94709-5011

They provide declassified govt. documents and an index
of UFOs in the New York Times 1947-1987
Send SASE for a list of documents

9.06: Earth Star Publications
-----------------------------
P.O. Box 117
Paonia, Colorado 81428
Ann Ulrich (Editor & Publisher)
303-527-3257
The Star Beacon
A self-publishing service which will perforrn typesetting, layout,
printing, and shipping of self-published books for a one-time fee. After
initial fee is paid, the author keeps lOO% of any profits
generated from the book. Ann Ulrich is associated with the UFO Contact
Center International as one of its Associate Directors.

9.07: Eden Press
----------------
Box 399
Careywood, Idaho 83809
Desiree Eden
208-683-2439
The publishing arm of the Planetary Professional Citizens Committeee (PPCC),
which is no longer in existence due to the death of its Director, Jerome
Eden, in 1989. However, EDEN Press still pro- vides a wide range of books
dealing with the UFO phenomenon.

9.08: JACO Book Publishers
--------------------------
P.O. Box 3135
Prescott, Arizona 86302
John H. Andrews
602-778-0018
JACO Book Publishers provides many UFO and Extraterrestrial-related books.

9.09: The Library of the New Essenes of Inyo
--------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 257
June Lake, California 93529
71448-7405
Nicholas Faust (Curator)
Originally known as "The School of Thought" which had been started by Hope
Troxell in 1960. It's original focus was UFO literature, especially that
dealing with contactees. Hope Troxell died in 1979 and The School of
Thought closed in 1980.In 1980 became The Library of the New Essenes of
Inyo. It assumed Hope Troxell's UFO materials and continually added to it
over the years. The Library also sells copies of Hope Troxell's published
material.

9.10: Luna Ventures
-------------------
P.O. Box 398
Suisun, California 94585
Publishes the Luna Ventures Catalog" which is a comprehensive listing of
available newsletters, books, microfiche, magazines, etc. for sale. Luna
Ventures will also accept manuscripts for publication.

9.11: The Pleiades Project
--------------------------
P.O. Box 386 Atwood, Ca 92601
Randolph Winters :213-281-6282
Terra  (Contact)
Founded in: 1985
A one-man organization for the dissemination of the information received by
Billy Meier from his Pleiadian contacts. Mr. Meier receives messages from
his contacts of the Pleiades star formation. The Pleiades Project compiles
these messages and offers them in audio and video formats. "Contact Terra"
is a quarterly newsletter which contains updated information and news about
Mr. Meier's contacts.
The Meier Chronicles VHS/Beta - $59.00 (82 minutes)
The Movie Footage     VHS/Beta - $49.00 (1 hour)
The Metal Analysis     VHS/Beta - $39.00 each (45 minutes)
The Entire Trilogy - $99.00 (save $188.00)
Each audio cassette $20.00 plus  postage & handling

9.12: UFO Audio-Video Clearing House
------------------------------------
P.O. Box 342
Yucaipa, Ca]ifornia 92399-0342
David Aaron (Director)
714-795-3361
Founded on May 18, 1988 and1232 members.
Offers an updated listing of UFO radio & television programs on video and
audio tape, going back to 1954. Video tapes are offered in Beta and VHS
format. Over 50% of their available product is donated by members.

9.13: UFO Books
---------------
P.O. Box 1053 - 514 First Street Florence, Arizona 85232
Christine (Stevens) Cox
602-868-4273
Christine Cox distributes UFO-related books, some of which were written and
edited by Wendelle Stevens (See: UFO Photo Archives), who is her father.
UFO Books also provides periodic flyers which contain UFO-related books,
photos, and calendars for sale.

9.14: UFO Photo Archives
------------------------
P.O. Box 17206
Tucson, Arizona 85710
Wendelle C. Stevens
UFO Journal Of Facts
Offers UFO-related books, most of which concentrate on, and thoroughly
investigate, individual cases. UFO Photo Archives gears its material for
those who want more in-depth knowledge about individual cases instead of a
broad overview of many cases.
In addition to books, UFO Photo Archives also sells UFO calendars and
posters. All books, posters, and calendars are sold through mail order only
and must be prepaid, including postage.
Their publication, "UFO Journal Of Facts" is a new magazine, filled with
color pictures and reports, concentrating on factual UFO investigative
reporting.

9:15: Worldwide UFO Newsclipping Bureau and Public Information Center 955
West
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Lancaster Road Suite 420
Orlando, Florida 32809
Provides a 16-20 page monthly report of worldwide UFO news clippings (all
foreign news stories are translated into English).
Subscription costs:
$24.95 /6 months $47.50/ one year
Special on Back Issues: all of 1988 for $39.95.
Besides the newsclipping service, Worldwide UFO also offers UFO-related
audio and video tapes (VHS format, approximately 2 hours in length) for
sale at the following prices:
Audio Tape - $ 4.00/ tape (buy two, get one free: no limit) Video Tape -
$20.00/ tape (buy two, get one free: no limit)

=== Miscellaneous Information
-----------------------------
10.00: alt.alien.visitors archives (back issues)
------------------------------------------------
Occasionally I have seen requests for information on past articles in
alt.alien.visitors. If you desire something, I have the entire newsgroup
archive back to July 13, 1992. I access it frequently. I have no way to
ftp it to another system for public access but would be glad to email
portions of it upon request. The responses are not guaranteed to be
correct or complete.

You can email me at [e-mail] and I will do my best.
[e-mail] (Gregg Brown)

10.01: A UFO Book List
-------------------------------
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people of my UFO bibliography
file, and to solicit contributions and book comments for it.  The file
can be ftp'd from paul.rutgers.edu, directory pub/ufo, file
bibliography.Z (compressed format).  The file is organized by author, and
also again by date-of-publication, and also includes Keith Rowell's
excellent bibliography file (which is also worked into the above two
parts).  Many titles have comments from various people as to the value of
the book; I would like any comments on any of the books from anyone, and
also additional books for inclusion. Check out the UFO Bibliography that
you can ftp at:
  paul.rutgers.edu
  The file is pub/UFO/bibliography.Z It has books by author, a second
  listing by date, and also the names of prominent authors in the field.

For more information contact: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)


10.02: Big Foot (Sasquatch)
---------------------------
   Our research group is currently investigating reports and sightings of
the animal known as "Bigfoot" or "Sasquatch". If you or somebody you know
has had such a sighting, or come across what may be evidence supporting
the existence of such an animal, please get in contact with us in one of
the following formats:

o Leave a private message in electronic mail:
  [e-mail] (Thomas Hill)
o Call Thomas Hill at 216-362-6529.
o Or write:

  Thomas E. Hill
  16124 Richard Dr.
  Brook Park, OH 44142

 Contact with us can be totally anonymous if you wish. We are especially
interested in Ohio sightings but are by no means limited to
investigations in that state. Please, serious responses only.


10.03: Free UFO Class
---------------------
Penn State University has Free U classes that are offered to the public
at no charge!  They supply a classroom to those who wish to teach a
subject and the public may attend them for free. One of the classes
offered is a UFO class Organized and taught by Janet Smith, and Beth
Combs.

In the class they discuss every aspect of the UFO phenomenon such as the
Billie Meier investigation, government cover-ups, Zecharia Sitchin who
wrote the Earth Chronicles series, Mars probe, Mars Face and many other
topics. The class also offers guest speakers who have done UFO research
plus videos, movies and articles about various UFO phenomenon.

The classes are held every Monday in room 207 of Sackett Building at Penn
State University in State College, PA. The starting time is 7:00 pm, EDT
(soon to be EST) and they ends sometime after 9:00 pm. The class will be
held until December 7th. The class may continue after the holidays into
next semester, but that depends on our level of interest.

If someone has questions or would like to contribute to the group in some
way, (ie. guest speakers, movies, different types of information, etc.)
contact Janet Smith at [e-mail] or write to her at: 123
Ramblewood Road, Pennsylvania Furnace, PA 16865.  Home phone: (814)
237-6763, Work phone: [phone].

10.04: Freedom of Information
-----------------------------
In the US, you write to the agency you want to reach, addressed to
the "Freedom of Information Officer".  A list of agencies is available
from the US Government Printing Office. Their order number is:
202-783-3238

The "US Government Manual" (1991/92), price $23 (they take MC/Visa
orders over the phone).  They will also send you a catalog of all
manuals/documents available from the USGPO for free. Order at the same
number.  [I have more information on this, I will add it later.]

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

10.05: Hidden Ancient Ruins
---------------------------
The address is Mystic Mountain Adventures
Dept. 100 11142 Manhattan Avnue, Ste. 43
Manhattan Beach, CA 90266   Ph# [phone].

10.06: Inter Library Loans (ILL)
--------------------------------
If you would like to research an the various UFO topics mentioned in this
FAQ and you don't have a large bank account, go to your local library and
ask about the Inter Library Loan System. The ILL lets you check out books,
audio tapes, video tape, and get copies of magazine articles that your local
library might not have. In many cases there is no charge for using ILL, this
depend upon you local library. Almost all the book I have used to research
this FAQ were ordered through ILL. Check it out. :-)


10.07: NASA Shuttle Footage
---------------------------
NASA Select on Satcom 2, Transponder 13, carries the whole mission, live
and anybody with a satellite dish can tune in.  You can find the original
uplink and shuttle audio on Transponder 5. This is the raw video with
shuttle to ground audio communications on it.


10.08: UFO Related anonymous FTP Sites
---------------------------------------
[Also See: 10.00: A Complete UFO Book List]


phoenix UFO Pics
----------------
phoenix.oulu.fi (130.231.240.17)
In /pub/ufo_and_space_pics

NASA Pics Sites
----------------
NOTE: the material at these sites is exceedingly voluminous;
I'd strongly suggest just getting the CD-ROMs instead of attempting
to transfer scores of gigabytes of pix and other material.

To access the online catalog of NASA material, CD-ROMS, et cetera:

    telnet nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
    login as "NODIS"
    no password

Anonymous ftp sites (five):

nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.10.4]

    This is a VAX/VMS box, so you must ftp-login as "anonymous".  To get
    a dir listing into a file on your system:

    ftp> dir [...] file_on_your_system

vab02.larc.nasa.gov

    lots of stuff, including Aliens of all colors, and UFO pix (though
this
    seems to mirror a lot of what's at phoenix.oulu.fi and has some
    additional material).

ames.arc.nasa.gov

    online copies of what appears to be all NASA's CD-ROMs, and lots of
    GIFs, *.img and *.jpg from most (all?) space missions since Apollo.

iris1.ucis.dal.ca

    dunno; it appears to be down today (Saturday, 18-July-1992).

ummts.cc.umich.edu
      |
 {changed to}
      |
      V
archive.umich.edu

    apparently popular (and, hence, slow).  Is supposed to have many
    NASA and Voyager data files.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Thad Floryan)

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 2 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [Part 3 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 11/20/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
       It currently takes up 143k (around 75 printed pages) in all
                       Line width is about 75 char.
                             (Part 3 of 4)


=== UFO Organizations
------------------

11.00: Aerial Phenomenon Research: The Indiana Group
----------------------------------------------------
18 Davis Drive Mt. Vernon, Indiana 47620
Francis L. Ridge (Director)
812-838-3120 / 812-838-9843
Publishers of : Indiana UFO Newsletter
Founded in 1986
A statewide organization which attempts to immediately respond to UFO
sightings

11.01: The Aetherius Society
----------------------------
6202 Afton Place Hollywood,
California 90028-8298
Detroit Branch
17670 West 12 Mile Road
Southfield, Michigan 48076
313-552-9153 / 313-552-9159
Reverend Lesley Young
(General Committeee) : 213~65-9652/ 213~67-HEAL (4325)
Publishers of : The Aetherius Society Journal : Cosmic Voice
Founded in 1960
The Hollywood, California office is the American headquarters for The
Society which was founded in England in 1955. In the US, the Society was
incorporated in 1960 as a non-profit religious, scientific, and educational
organization.
The Society is a metaphysical, channeling organization whose
founder/president, Sir George King, is a Western Master of Yoga and who has
been in contact with Extraterrestrial Intelligences for over 35 years. He
acts as a channel for the dissemination of Higher Wisdom from These
Sources.
The Society's objective is to explain the presence of UFOs around the Earth
and to make known knowledge given to their president by Advanced Beings who
reside in this Solar System. This information is disseminated through
books, pamphlets, cassettes and albums and two newsletters, "The Aetherius
Society Journal" and "Cosmic Voice".
Also, study courses in: "Metaphysical and Occult Sciences" and "Cosmic
Revelations" to further spread the word and to explain the cosmic
significance of messages received from the Advanced Beings. Regular
meetings at the U.S. and England headquarters as well as by associated
branches throughout the world.
Prayer Circles are organized during a Spiritual Push (or Magnetization
Period) at different holy mountain sites, when the giant Interplanetary
Spacecraft is brought into Earth's orbit by a Cosmic Master. Helpers who
attend these Power Circles send out the Spiritual energies from this Cosmic
Master to help mankind.

11.02: Ancient Astronaut Society
--------------------------------
1921 St. Johns Avenue
Highland Park, Illinois 60035-3105
Gene M. Phillips (Founder) :708-295-8899
Publication is Ancient Skies
Founded in 1973. non-profit, tac-exempt organization operated for
scientific, literary and educational purposes. The primary objectives of
the Society are to search for evidence of whether Earth was visited in the
remote past by intelligent beings from outer space and to determine whether
a highly developed, technological civilization existed on Earth before our
recorded history.
The Society also provides complete study courses in: "Metaphysical and
Occult Sciences" and "Cosmic Revelations" to explain the cosmic
significance of messages received from Advanced Beings.

11.03: Ancient Truth Research Foundation
----------------------------------------
6146 Eleanor Avenue #205 Los Angeles, California 90~036
Albert Rainey
213'464-5948
Publication is Cosmic Current News
Interested in many New Age topics, including UFOs.

11.04: The Awareness Reserch Foundation, Inc.
---------------------------------------------
DeSoto Square
No. 29, 35 Ritter Road
Hayesville, North Carolina 28904
Helen I. Hoag (Executive Director)
704-389-8672
New Age organization with many interests, including UFOs; investigates
various metaphysical activities and issues findings through publication of
various books.

11.05: Borderland Sciences Research Foundation (BSRF)
-----------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 429
Garberville, California 9544429
Contact : Tom Brown
Telephone Number : 707-986-7211
Publication is : Journal of Borderland Research
Founded in: 1945
Functions as clearinghouse, specializing in rare and unusual information.
BSRF is an alternative  scientific movement which deals with a variety of
borderland subjects, including UFOs; a
non-profit organization; its members are people who take an active interest
in observing the physical, mental, and spiritual environment. In addition
BSRF studies: Light & Color affects on people, Radionics, Dowsing, Free
Energy, Orgone Energy, Hollow
Earth Mysteries, Anomalies, Fortean Phenomena, Hypnosis, Photography of the
Invisible, etc. and offers a catalog of available books, reports, and
tapes.

11.06: BRITISH UFO RESEARCH ASSOCIATION (BUFORA)
------------------------------------------------
Commonly called BUFORA. It was formed in 1962 as a federation
of eight regional UK UFO groups. These included the London
UFO Research Organisation (LUFORO, founded in 1959) the largest
UK group at the time and the British Flying Saucer Bureau (BFSB,
founded in 1952) which was the oldest UK group.

BUFORA publishes six issues per year of the A4 magazine UFO TIMES.
Current annual membership subscription is 18 pounds sterling.
Approx membership 500. Current senior officers include Stephen
Gamble (Chairman) and John Spencer (Vice-chairman).

Contact address : The Leys, 2c Leyton Road, Harpenden, Hertfordshire,
AL5 2TL, Great Britain. Phone [phone].

11.07: California UFO
---------------------
1800 South Robertson Blvd
Box 355
Los Angeles, California 90035
Vicki Cooper (Editor); Don Ecker (Researcher)
Telephone Numbers : 213-273-9409 /818-951-1250
Publication : UFO
Publishes the bi-monthly UFO" magazine. Additionally, this organization
sponsors annual conferences which concentrate on a variety of UFO-related
subjects.

11.08: Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS)
------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 218                            c/o Mr. Lawrence Fawcett
Coventry, Cormecticut 06238     [or]    471 Goose Lane
Peter Gersten (Director)                Coventry, Connecticut 06238
Lawrence Fawcett (Asst Director & Publisher)
Barry Greenwood (Research Director & Editor)
        P.O.Box 176, Stoneham, MASS, 02180, USA
Publication is : Just Cause
Founded in : 1978

A non-profit organization to uncover all existing documentation relating to
governrnent involvement in UFO investigations and research. To accomplish
this, CAUS files numerous Freedom of Inforrnation Act (FOIA) lawsuits in an
attempt to get the governrnent to release relevant documents.Their "Just
Cause" quarterly newsletter carries events and provides updated UFO news
from around the world. They published a book too -- "Clear Intent"

11.09: Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
       Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP)
----------------------------------------------------
Refer to: The Skeptical Inquirer
P.O. Box 229
Buffalo, New York 14215{)229
Paul Kurtz (Chairman - Skeptical Inquirer)
Philip J. Klass (UFO Subcommittee)
Lynda Harwood (Public Relations)
716-834-3222
716-834-0841
 "The Skeptical Inquirer" is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization.
CSICOP is headed by Paul Kurtz and investigates claims of the
Paranorrnal, including UFOs and UFO-related activity.The committee's
investigations, findings, commentaries, etc. are published in "The
Skeptical Inquirern.

11.10: COMPUTER UFO NETWORK (CUFON)
-----------------------------------
Bulletin Board system run by UFO Reporting and Information Service. Date of
formation not known. Information director : Dale Goudie, SYSOP: Jim Klotz
Based Seattle, Washington, USA. Board number [phone], parameters
300/1200/2400 bps 8 bit no parity 1 stop bit.

11.11: Contactee
----------------
P.O. Box 12
New Milford, New Jersey 07646
Ellen Crystall (Director)
Studies UFOs by direct observation; quarterly newsletter, "Contactee"
details activities.Tne primary goal of Contactee is to educate about
world-wide contacts being made with UFOs and to disseminate information to
all interested parties.
Contactee also sells books and sponsors various conferences.
Regular Member (those who claim to have had alien contact) and
Auxiliary Member (those who do not claim UFO contact)
membership fee is $20.00 per year and includes the newsletter.
Contactee accepts articles for its newsletter.

11.12: Cosmic Awareness Communications
--------------------------------------
P.O. Box 115
Olympia, Washington 98507
Vikki T. (Correspondence Secretary)
Pulication is : Reveltions of Awareness
A tax-exempt organization.
Studies New Age subjects, including UFOs. This group is centered around the
"channelings" of a "Force" which refers to itself as "Cosmic Awareness". CA
believes that this "Force" has expressed itself through selected people in
history including Jesus, the Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, and Edgar Cayce,
among others.
Publication, "Revelations of Awareness, has published over 300 editions and
details various New Age subjects. Subscribers receive a catalog listing all
available back issues and subjects covered. Membership is $30.00 per year.
Will accept memberships for three month periods ($3.00 per month), prepaid.
Individual/Family $ 3.00/ month or $30.00/ year New Age-related (including
UFOs) books and tapes available.

11.13: CSETI
------------
Dr. Steven Greer 704-274-5671
Asheville,N.C.

11.14: Delval UFO, Inc.
-----------------------
948 Almshouse Road
Ivyland, Pennsylvania 18974
Anthony Volpe (President)
215-357-2909
Publication is the Awakening; the group was founded in 1973.
A channeling, contactee UFO organization, founded in 1973.their publication
"Awakening", is offered nine 9 times a year; they sell UFO-related books
and tapes.

11.15: The Fair Witness Project, Inc.
-------------------------------------
Parent Organization: William L. Moore Publications & Research
4219 West Olive Avenue Suite #247
Burbank, California 91505
213-463-0542
Publication is : Focus
A non-profit corporation whose income is used to fund the research efforts
of qualified persons selected by the Directors of the Fair Witness Project.
They accept donations and will send an acknowledgement of that donation for
tax purposes.

11.16: The Federation
---------------------
The Federation is a group of people who feel it is high time we got
off this rock and started exploring the great unknown of space.  The
Federation has drawn out in blue print form a drive system that is a a super
semi conducting crystaline structure. To get more information on the
Federation send a 3.5 floppy and they will place an info packet on it and
send
it back to you. You must have a mac that has 5.0 microsoftword or better.Send
to this adrress:

The Federation
C/O Lady Rhavyn
Po box 231772
Anchorage, Alaska
          99523-1772

If you have any questions feel free to send to this account.
[e-mail]


11.17: Flying Saucer Information Center
---------------------------------------
7803 Ruanne Court
Pasadena, Maryland 21122
James H. Wales : Update
Founded in 1954
Acts as a clearing house for the distribution of UFO information to the
general public. Laura Mundo began this organization in 1954.
Group feels the Earth is in danger due to upcoming radical changes in the
atmosphere (sunspot activity) and Space Beings are here to help. They will
be able to either solve the problem or take selected Earth people to safe
locations (inside their insulated spaceships) until the atmospheric
activity calms down. When humans return to Earth after surviving the
atmospheric instability, they will begin the Universal Way of Life, which
is a standard way of life on other planets. Also believe Space People
living on Earth today are to here to monitor us and help.

11.18: FORTEAN RESEARCH CENTER (FRC)
------------------------------------
This was founded in 1982 by Ray Boeche and deals with all aspects of Fortean
Phenomena. The current Director is Scott Colbourn. The contact address for
the Center is P.O.Box 94627, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68509, USA. The Center runs
a Bulletin Board on [phone].

11.19: FUND FOR UFO RESEARCH (FUFOR)
------------------------------------
Formed in 1979, commonly called FUFOR. Not a membership organisation, but
awards grants towards research activities. Funds raised primarily by
donation.
Chairman Bruce Macabee. Contact address : P.O. Box 277, Mount Rainer,
Maryland,
20712, USA.

11.20: The Fund for UFO Research, Inc.
--------------------------------------
P.O. Box 277
Mt. Rainier, Maryland 20712
Bruce Maccabee, PhD (Chairman)
Publication is: Quarterly Report
Founded in 1979
2000 Members
A non-profit, tax-exempt organization based in Washington, D.. whose
mission is to provide grants for scientific research and public education
projects dealing with the UFO phenomenon. Since 1979 has raised more than
$150,000.00 from more than 2000 contributors. Also sponsors and awards the
annual Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Award."
The Fund sponsors such projects the release of U.S.
Government documents concerning UFOs under the Freedom of Informatioon
Act,computer-aided analysis of UFO photographs, research into major UFO
sightings around the world,
research into "Operation Majestic 12", psychological testing of people who
reported being abducted by apparent aliens, international symposiums and
conducts interviews and lectures.
The Fund takes the position that many reported UFOs cannot be identified as
conventional aerial vehicles or phenomena. Thus, UFO reports are
potentially of enormous significance and merit serious scientific research.

11.21: Gulf Breeze Skywatch
---------------------------
904-433-2737 (Bruce and Ann Morrison)

11.22: Inner-Peace Prosperity Network (IPPN)
--------------------------------------------
12628 Black Saddle Lane
Germntown, Maryland 20874-5001
Patrick O'Connell
301-972-1980
IPPN believes that extraterrestrials have already landed and established
underground bases, mainly in the western and southwestern United States.
"Trends & Predictions Analystn, is a compilation of UFO-related theories,
news, and current events; newsletter (printed twice a year) also details
available books, papers, and tapes for sale by IPPN.
Membership rates:
$ 4.00/ year (U.S. & Canada) $ 5 .00/ year (Foreign) $12.vO /3 years (IJ.S.
& Canada) $15.00 / 3 years (Foreign)
Membership includes the newsletter. IPPN also sells Name Lists of people
who subscribe to New Age periodicals. IPPN gears the selling of these lists
to those interested in selling New Age- related products. As of September
1990, the charge for these lists are:
1000 Narnes $20.00 2000 Names $40.00 3000 Narnes $60.00
IPPN also sells back-issues of "The New Atlantean Journaln, a defunct
periodical dealing with New Age-related subjects, including UFOs.

11.23: Intercontinental UF Galactic Spacecraft-Research and
       Analytic Network (ICUFON)
------------------------------------------------------------
 35-40 75th Street Suite 4G
Jackson Heights, New York 11372
Colman S. VonKeviczky (Director)
718-72-7948
A non-profit organization whose goal is to persuade the United Nations (and
the world's governments) to establish an official World Authority for UFO
Affairs (the WASA Project), to seek and establish contact with
extraterrestrial galactic powers; maintains that the world's governments
have known about UFOUs for several decades and that they are conducting
covert warfare in an attempt to try to stop any invasion from outer space.
ICUFON wants to open full dialogue with any and all extraterrestrial
forces.
ICUFON maintains an Archives Department which contains UFO cases,
photographs, movie films, declassified military and governmental
documentation from all over the world.

11.24: INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE FOR UFO RESEARCH (ICUFOR)
---------------------------------------------------------
Formed in 1979 as a UFOlogical 'United Nations'. The membership consists
of representative organisations for various countries. Commonly called
ICUR. Members include BUFORA (UK); Center for UFO Studies (USA); CISU
(Italy); MUFON (USA); SUFOI (Denmark); Project UNICAT (USA) Project URD
(Sweden); VUFORS (Australia).

ICUR's objectives are to promote data exchange between groups and to
help establish common standards and terminology.

Officers are Chairman: Robert Digby (BUFORA, UK); Vice-Chairman: Walter
Andrus (MUFON, USA); Secretary : Stephen Gamble (BUFORA, UK) and
Treasurer : John Spencer (BUFORA, UK). Contact address is : P.O. Box 314,
Penn, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, HP10 8DH, Great Britain.

11.25: Internationa1 Fortean Organization (INFO)
------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 367
Arlington, VA 22210-0367
Raymond Manners (President & Journal Editor)
Publication is INFO Journal
Founded in 1965 by Ronald Willis
A non-profit corporation established for the educational and scientific
study of Fortean phenomena. INFO investigates the strange and unreasonable
events that happen in this world, including UFOs, lost civilizations,
physical anomalies, Atlantis, Bigfoot, vanished civilizations, etc.
Today, INFO continues the work of Charles Fort to collect, record, and
publish reports of strange occurrences. Their findings are published in the
INFO Journal. INFO holds an annual convention, called FortFest, in the
Washington D.C. area.
Annual membership fee includes the "INFO Journal" is $12.00 in the U.S. and
$16.00 for foreign countries. INFO maintains files on all of its
investigations, cases, etc. Slides, books, and tapes are for sale and back
issues of "INFO Journal" are also available. The INFO Research Service
performs funded research for the media while the INFO Research Library is
open to scholars.

11.26: INTRUDERS FOUNDATION
----------------------------
Organisation formed by abduction researcher Budd Hopkins to provide support
and a forum for abductees to discuss their experiences. Contact address :
PO Box 30233, New York, New York, 10011, USA.  Phone and fax: [phone]

11.27: Island Skywatch
----------------------
164-22 77th Road Flushing,
New York 11366 : Bill Knell (Director)
718-591-1854 (24-Hour Hotline) . The New York UFO Report : Island
Publication is Skywatch Journal
1989 by Bill Knell
A tax-exempt organization whose goal is the scientific and objective study
of the UFO phenomenon. Membership ($25.00 per year) includes one year
subscription to the "New York UFO Report" and the Island Skywatch Journal,
one copy of "Hidden Truth: The UFO Story" (a two-hour video history about
UFOs written by Bill Knell), the opportunity to attend free local meetings,
free training as a UFO investigator, and the opportunity to investigate
Island Skywatch cases.They offer a wide variety of books, audiotapes, video
tapes, for sale. Bill Knell has cable TV UFO show "UFOs Over Long Island"
on the Brookhaven Cable TV system every Thursday at 6:30 p.m. (channel
35).UFO Abductee Support Group offered as well.

11.28: J. ALLEN HYNEK CENTER FOR UFO STUDIES (CUFOS)
-----------------------------------------------------
2457 West Peterson Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60659
Contacts
Mark Rodeghier (President)
George Eberhart (Librarian & Archivist)
312-271-3611
Publications are : The Journal of UFO Studies and International UFO
Reporter (IUR)
Founded in 1973 by Dr. J. Allen Hynek

A non-profit organization whose goal is to promote serious research into
the UFO phenomena through the expertise of an international group of
scientists, academians, and volunteers. This organization has a worldwide
network of field investigators that interview witnesses, examine physical
evidence and gather any other relevant information. The major purpose of
CUFOS is to act as a clearinghouse - aplace where UFO experiences can be
reported and researched. Dr. J. Allen Hynek, who was con- sidered one of
the world's pre- eminent authorities on the UFO phenomenon, first became
involved with UFOs as Scientific Consultant to the U.S. Air Force from 1948
to 1968, and was Scientific Director of CUFOS until his death in 1986. He
coined the phrase "close encounters of the third kind" and acted as
technical advisor to director Steven Spielberg on the movie of the same
name.
CUFOS maintains the world's largest repository of data about UFO phenomena,
second only to the US Government! This
material includes more than 50,000 cases of UFO sightings and a library of
more than 5,000 books and magazines, which cover all aspects of the UFO
phenomena. CUFOS promotes various activities, projects, publications,
symposiums, conferences, seminars and field trips to various UFO-related
locations and sells journals, books, audiocassette tapes, and other
publications.
The "International UFO Reporter (IUR)", published bi-monthly, reports on
current sightings, news and articles on current UFO topics. CUFOS also
publishes the annual "Journal of UFO Studies" which presents a collection
of scholarly papers on the UFO
phenomenon. A $25.00 contribution entitles a member to become an ASSOCIATE
of CUFOS and to receive the "International UFO Reporter" for one year.
The Center publishes the International UFO Reporter

11.29: The Massachusetts Center for the study of Aerial Phenomena
------------------------------------------------------------------
43 Harrison Street Reading,
Massachusetts 01867 Contact
Jim Melesciuc
617-944 0686
A loose-knit organization comprised of researchers who wish to remain
unaffiliated with any specific UFO group and concentrate  efforts in
individual fields of interest; many members do belong to other UFO groups,
such as CAUS, MUFON, CUFOS, etc.

11.30: Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on Aerial Phenomena (MICAP)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Based in Denver, Colorado. Director is Micheal Corbin.
They can be reached at [phone].
P.O. Box 172, Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0928
MICAP is an international membership group dedicated to the scientific
exploration of the UFO phenomenon. Membership is $30.00 per year and includes
a subscription to CONTINUUM.

For application, call 303-431-8797, or write to MICAP at Box 172, Wheat
Ridge,
CO  80034-0172.

11.31: Mutual UFO Network, Inc. (MUFON)
----------------------------------------
103 Oldtowne Road Seguin, Texas 78155099
Contact Telephone Number Publications
Founded Number of Members
Walter H, Andrus, Jr.
512-379-9216

Founded in May 31, 1969 with a membership of 2500 Originally based in
Illinois it was called the Mid-west UFO Network, changing its name around
1972 to Mutual to represent its growing role as a national and international
group.

MUFON has local groups in each State within the USA and has representatives
in many countries outside the USA. Current membership number is around
4000. MUFON publishes 12 issues per year of the A4 MUFON UFO Journal : MUFON
Field Investigator's Manual. The annual membership fee is 25 US Dollars or
30 Dollars for overseas members. MUFON runs a bulletin board service,
contact the office for details.

MUFON is non-profit, international, scientific organization devoted to
studying and researching the UFO phenomenon. MUFON sponsors and conducts
worldwide conferences, seminars and symposiums. MUFON members believe that a
concentrated scientific study by dedicated investigators and researchers
will provide the ultimate answer to the UFO enigma. State Director oversees
the activities of Field Investigators through State Section Directors. An
International Co-ordinator and seven Continental Co-ordinators work with
Foreign Representatives in each country to investigate UFO activity.
MUFON is the "parent organization" for numerous, smaller UFO research
groups across the United States and around the world.
Since 1970 has sponsored an Annual International UFO Symposium where
scientists, engineers, university professors, and authors lecture on their
particular specialization to solving the UFO enigma. The copyrighted
symposium proceedings are published annually for worldwide distribution.
Back issues of symposium proceedings are available.
Anyone interested is invited to join MUFON by submitting a membership
application and dues for approval.

Other MUFON Branches:
New Zealand Director for MUFON,
  [e-mail] (Murray Bott)
  PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand  Phone: [phone]

11.32: Mutual UFO Network of North Carolina, Inc. (MUFON-NC)
------------------------------------------------------------
602 Battleground Road
Lincolnton, North Carolina 28092
George D. Fawcett (Staee Director)
704-735-5725
Founded  in February 1, 1990; non-profit corporation whose goal is to
investigate and research the UFO enigma. MUFON-NC accepts reports of
sightings, visitations, etc. and will investigate those cases with the most
merit.
MUFON-NC holds quarterly meetings in North Carolina on the first Sunday of
February, May, August and November on a rotating basis in different cities;
meetings generally run from lpm until 6pm.
To join: $10 self-addressed, stamped envelope with 45 cents postage to the
above address; you get forms for both MUFON and MUFON- NC.

Granville Angell (Treasurer)               Robert H. Hair
Route 2, Box 252D Vale,                    314 Wilson Street
North Carolina 28168                       Eden, North Carolina 27288
704-462-2303                               919-627-4184


11.33: National Investigations Committeee on UFOs (NICUFO)
---------------------------------------------------------
14617 Victory Blvd Suite 4
P.O. Box 5
Van Nuys, California 91411
Dr. Frank E. Stranges, PhD. (President)
818-989-5942
Publishes the UFO Journal : Inter-Space-Link-Confidential NL
Founded in July 1967
A non-profit organization whose aim is to conduct research into, and
provide education about, the fields of UFOs, Space, and Science phenomena.
Members are available to provide lectures throughout the world. Monthly
meetings, as well as two UFO seminars per year, are held at NICUFO
headquarters in Van Nuys, California.
One of the world's largest collections of UFO slides, books and tapes. For
more information materials write: I.E.C. Book Department, P.O. Box 73, VVan
Nuys, California 91408.
Anyone interested in becoming a State Director should contact NICUFO.
Annual membership fees are $25.00 ($30.00 foreign) and includes a
subscription to the UFO Journal magazine, which is a quarterly publication.
Also available is the Inter-Space-Link- Confidential-Newsletter for $60.00
per year.
Based upon their experience, members may serve in one of the following
positions: Consultant, State or Provincial Director, State Section
Director, Foreign Representative, Field Investigator, Research Specialist,
Amateur Radio Operator, Astronomer, Field Investigator Trainee, Translator,
UFO News Clipping Service, Contributing Subscriber or Associate Member
(under 18 years of age).
MUFON trains its Field Investigators and provides them with the "MUFON
Field Investigator's Manual".
Amateur Radio Networks are used to receive and disseminate UFO sighting
reports and current UFO information. The time and frequencies of these
broadcasts are published in the "MUFON UFO Journal."

11.34: The National Sighting Research Center (NSRC)
---------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 76
Emerson, New Jersey 07630
Bob Sylvester (Co Director)
Publishes the National Sighting Yearbook since 1988.
A non-profit organization composed of 6 part-time research specialists with
expertise in microcomputer-based data base management systems (DBMS),
statistical analysis, micro telecommunications, and trend analysis. The
NSRC acts as an information- gathering organization which compiles massive
amounts of data and disseminates it in the form of computerized reports,
including information in statistical and graphical form.
The goals of NSRC are to provide the professional UFO investigator or
researcher with a computerized, highly graphical database summary of all
reported sightings of anomalous aerial phenomena within the United States
and a clearinghouse for UFO sighting report data; periodically release
other publications, in-depth reports requested by other researchers and
organizations.

11.35: Nevada Aerial Research Group (NARG)
------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 81407
Las Vegas, Nevada 8918G-1407
Val Valerian
Publishes the Leading Edge : NARG AMual Journal
A worldwide, New Age organization with researchers and investigators 12
countries and 37 states. The primary goals of NARG are to provide
information on developments in our civilization which affect all of this
planet, to investigate all processes that impede evolution, and promote an
increase in the awareness level of the mass human consciousness.
The NARG investigates, radionics, psycotronics, mind control, alien
interaction, gravitational and crystalline technologies, overt and covert
intelligence operations, systems above and below the surface of the planet,
conspiracies, advances in physics, planetary power structures, foreign
technology, brain machines, implant technology, human abductions and animal
mutilations.
Leading Edge is only available from Arcturus Book Service,
PO Box 831383, Stone Mountain, Georgia 30083-0023, 404-297-4624. Published
6 times a year.This is the source of the MATRIX materials.

NI: New Zealand UFO Studies Centre
----------------------------------
New Zealand UFO Studies Centre
Director: Dr J F De Bock (Phd)
136 Brooklands Road
New Plymouth
New Zealand
Telephone: [phone]

11.36: North American Circle
-----------------------------
PO Box 61144, Durham, NC 27715-1144

11.37: North American Institute for Crop Circle Research (NAICCR)
------------------------------------------------------------------
NAICCR was formed in 1990 after requests for information about North
American crop circles had reached epidemic proportions.  UFOROM
associates, who had been regularly investigating reports and
discoveries of UGMs (Unusual Ground Markings), including traces very
similar to crop circles, responded to inquiries by formalising a sister
group devoted to research into UGMs.

NAICCR associates investigate UGMs rationally, and prepare reports on
their findings.  NAICCR distributes a list of known North American
UGMs, based on information provided to NAICCR by co-operative
researchers throughout the continent.  A comparable list of British UGMs
has never been available in this manner.  NAICCR also publishes an
annual report of North American UGM activity, with analyses and
commentary.

NAICCR will continue to function in the future at about the present
level of activity, though it would be preferred if UGM cases would
once again be studied as special cases of UFO cases, as was the case
before tthat category of UGMs was raised to a separate category because
of British research.  NAICCR may perhaps merge back with UFOROM, if this
is the case, since UFOROM had been investigating UGMs as a matter of
course.

NAICCR                              NAICCR
Box 1918                [or]        649 Silverstone Avenue
Winnipeg, Manitoba                  Winnipeg, Manitoba
Canada   R3C 3R2                    R3T 2V8, Canada.

11.38: Northamptonshire UFO Research Centre (NUFORC)
----------------------------------------------------
This is a local group covering the county of Northamptonshire within England.
Common name is NUFORC. Formed in 1986. Number of members about 20. Chief
officers are Stephen Gamble (Chairman); Susan Pollock (Secretary) and Elsie
Oakensen (Treasurer). Contact address : 30 Stonebridge Court, Lings,
Northampton, Northamptonshire, England.

11.39: NORTHERN UFO NETWORK (NUFON)
-----------------------------------
Formed in 1973, the Northern UFO Network or NUFON was a loose federation of
local UFO groups throughout northern England. At the peak about 20 groups
were members. A small newsletter called Northern UFO News was published by
the group. Although the federation of groups no longer exists, Northern UFO
News is still published by Jenny Randles.

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 3 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [Part 4 of 4]
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Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 11/20/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
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11.40: Omega Communications
----------------------------
P.O. Box 2051 Cheshire, Connecticut 06410
John W. White, M.A.T. (President)
Sponsors public  events (seminars, lectures, symposiums, etc) to promote
discussion about the UFO experience. Since 1987, Omega Communications has
produced an annual symposium, "The UFO Experience" where numerous
researchers and contactees are invited to talk. These proceedings are
published in audio and video format available for sale. Audio and
videotapes of previous conferences are available. Audio tapes are $9.00
each while videotapes are $29.95 each . Each tape is approximately 90
minutes in length. Video tapes are available only in VHS format.

11.41: ParaNet (Paranormal Network) Information Service
-------------------------------------------------------
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172

Voice Phone - 303-431-8796
Data BBS Phone - 303-431-8797
Publication is The Continuum    :
Founded in 1986

History
ParaNet started on January 1, 1986 in a bulletin-board system called
"The Other Side" It was one of the first BBS that gathered together
various information for the pourpous of research on the paranormal.
Jim Speiser was the Director of ParaNet 1986-88 at the time and
wanted to bring together the three factions of paranormal debate
(the skeptics, the believers, and the undecided) for public
discussion of paranormal. He created ParaNet as neutral ground for
the exchange of information on the paranormal.In 1988 Speiser turned
over the directorship to Michael Corbin.

Current Status
ParaNet's basic goles are reflected in its motto:  "Answering Questions,
Questioning Answers". ParaNet offers investigator's raw material, in the
form of sighting reports, which comes from data supplied by the public.
The network concept provides the investigators and its users with immediate,
one-on-one contact, and instant access to a global communications medium.
ParNet also keeps it users informed major, fast-breaking stories involving
the paranormal. ParaNet can be accessed in six countries on three
continents.

The People of ParaNet
ParaNet provides access to experts through their electronic system. Its
research  branch is headed by Robert B. Klinn, a veteran investigator who
worked for the late Dr. J. Allen Hynek. ParaNet also provides a conference
on the UFO abduction experience hosted by Dr. David Jacobs, a UFO historian
and author. Many different groups and researchers of the paranormal use
Parenet for information exchange and discussion of ideas. Among some of them
are the Bay Area Skeptics, the South Shore Skeptics, Marge Christenson,
T. Scott Crain, Dan Drasin, Stan Gordon, Barry Greenwood, Budd Hopkins,
Linda Howe, Phil Imbrogno, Dr. David Jacobs, Dr. Donald Johnson, Philip
Klass,
Bruce Maccabee, Maj. James McGaha, Dr. Mark Rodeghier, Robert Schaeffer,
Tracy Torme, and Dr. David Webb, Don Ecker, Vicki Cooper and and many others.

The Future of ParaNet
In the future ParaNet plans to expan their network to even more cournties,
increasing public education and scientific-oriented  research and
investigation unequaled in  the field. Their focus will be directed at
bringing various credible existing organizations from around the world into
a better orgonized research effort. ParaNet will also turn its attention to
more investigative  reporting. Paranet plans to acomplish this unser their
new organization known as  MICAP  (Multi-national Investigations Cooperative
on  Aerial Phenomena). (see MICAP) MICAP will be a separate non-profit
research/educational vehicle with investigative ability.


Publications:
CONTINUUM is a publication put out quarterly by ParaNet It costs $18.00
per year.It is a very informative and diverse publication.

Internet Mailings:
To get the current postings from ParaNet send a mail message to:
[e-mail]
with the word "Subscribe" in the subject line.

Information about ParaNet and MICAP can be obtained by phoning 303-431-8796,
or by writing to them at P.O. Box 172, Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172.

To access ParaNet via computer and modem, call 303-431-8797 and you will be
guided through the registration process and be given choices of which level
of membership you wish to acquire.

ParaNet's files are available on floppy disks or hard copy. Their catalog
is available for  $10.00 and contains a full listing of all available
files, books, and videos. Contact Michael Corbin at:
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172

11.42: Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained (PASU)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
6 Oakhill Avenue
Greensburg, Pennsylvania 15601
Stan Gordon (Director)
412-838-7768
PASU Data Exchange
Founded in 1981
A volunteer, non-profit scientific research unit conducts investigations of
strange or unusual occurrences, with emphasis on UFOs and UFO-related
activity. PASU members donate their time and equipment. PASU is a statewide
clearinghouse for reports of UFO sightings and is comprised of individuals
with training or experience in the fields of science, engineering,
technology or medicine who act as field investigators. Monthly meetings are
held to share information. PASU has on file thousands of cases from
Pennsylvania that include UFO sightings, creature reports, unusual animal
killings, unexplained photographs and other anomalies. PASU attempts to
send field investigators directly to the scene of an occurrence to gather
information and interview witnesses. The "PASU Data Exchange" newsletter
contains information regarding investigations conducted into unusual
incidents that have occurred in Penn.

11.43: PNET
------------
Based in Melbourne, Australia. Bulletin board system, echos some Paranet
material. Sysop : Brian Evans, contact Brian by Internet mail for
information:
[e-mail]

11.44: The Portland UFO Group (PUFOG)
-------------------------------------
P.O. Box 998 Wilsonville, OR 97070
Jennifer Brown - Jacobs (Director)
503-538-0836
PUFOG Newsletter Founded in 1989
500 Members
A non-profit UFO organization whose monthly seminars are open to the
general public; maintain no membership and are unaffiliated with any other
UFO organization. PUFOG is an information group that conducts seminars on
the 3rd Sunday of each month at Mt. Hood Community College, Gresham, OR.
These seminars present knowledgeable  speakers on UFOs and related
subjects. Those who attend their seminars pay an admission fee and receive
the PUFOG newsletter.

11.45: Roundtown UFO Society
-----------------------------
Roundtown UFO Society, PO Box 52, Circleville, Ohio 43113 Multi-national

11.46: Royal Priest Research
----------------------------
P.O. Box 10546
Sedona, Arizona 86336
Lyssa Royal
602-282-320S
Publication is: The Prism
Founded in 1975, an independent research group with no members. Lyssa Royal
mixes generally- accepted research techniques skills with less provable
methods, such as channeling. Thus far, their research has produced two
books, "The Prism of Lyra - An Exploration of Human Galactic Heritage" (130
pages) and "Visitors From Within" (171 pages).
Lyssa Royal organizes and conducts weekly sessions, private consultations,
and special events. She offers tapes of her numerous channeling sessions
which discuss various topics and  extraterrestrial beings both physical and
nonphysical. Each tape is 90 minutes and $12.00; complete set (9 tapes) is
$75.00.
"The Prism" is periodic newsletter which details news, list of recent
channeling tapes, books, etc.

11.47: The Search for EXtraterrestrial Intelligence
---------------------------------------------------
NASA HEADQUARTERS, WASHINGTON, D.C.
Office of Space Science and Applications
Michael Braukus
(Phone:  [phone])

Ames Research Center, Mountain View, Calif.
Michael Mewhinney
(Phone:  [phone])

Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
Mary Hardin
(Phone:  [phone])


11.48: Sirian Rainbow Lodge
---------------------------
P.O. Box 2108
St. Petersburg, Florida 33731
Liah GoldenHawk (Co Founder)
L. Baird (Bookkeeper)
813-822-8154
Pulbication is Solar Trek; founded in 1990.
Primarily an extraterrestrial outpost program, provides information from
the alien point of view. The Sirian Rainbow Lodge is the StarSystem Sirian
Outpost; interested in sharing all types of positive ET Alien knowledge.
ET & UFO Network where Contactees and others may share eexperiences,
contacts and opinions. Focuses on believing and possibilities, rather than
proving any theories; focuses mainly on occupants of UFOs and alien
knowledge.
The Lodge is led by the Bennu who is an alien of the Nordic type from
StarSystem Sirius. To raise money, the Lodge sells books and booklets by
the Bennu and "Solar Trek", the ET Alien Quarterly Journal.

11.49: SKYNET
--------------
257 Sycamore Glen
Pasadena, California 91105
Ann Druffel (Project Co Ordinator)
213-256-8655
Publication is Skynet Guides; Founded in1965; 50 - 100 members.
Established to serve as a tracking system for UFO reports in the Los
Angeles, California area. Its original purpose was to receive UFO reports
at the time that witnesses were viewing the objects, thus centering their
efforts on real-time viewing, photographing, monitoring, rather than
relying on after-the-fact analysis.
Upon joining, members agree to contact other SKYNET members whenever an
unusual sighting is  occurring for members to view, photograph and monitor
the object in real-time while not having to wait for an after-the-fact
presentation. This contacting of other SKYnet members that a sighting is
occurring is the only obligation of members. All calls from the public
receive an in-depth phone interview by an assigned SKYNET official and if
warranted, further field investigations are conducted.

11.50: SOCIE'TE' BELGE d'ETUDE des PHENOMENES SPATIAUX (SOBEPS)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Commonly called SOBEPS and the leading group in Belgium. Senior Officers :
President : Michel Bougard, Secretary : Lucien Clerebaut. Contact address
74 Avenue Paul Janson, B-1070, Bruxelles, Belgium.

11.51: Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE)
-----------------------------------------------
Office of the Secretary
P.O. Box 3818,
University Station
Charlottesville, Virginia 22903-0818
Laurence W. Fredrick (Secretary)
804-924-4905 : 804-924-3104
Publishes the Journal of Scientific Exploration and The Explorer .
Established in 1982. A tax-exempt group that investigates various
anomalies, including UFOs. Although its president Professor Peter Sturrock
of Stanford University, all contact with SSE should be made through
Laurence W. Fredrick. The goal of the SSE is to gain further understanding
of anomalous phenomena (including UFOs) and to share this knowledge with
the public. The Society considers anomalous phenomena to be incidents that
appear to contradict existing scientific knowledge; regarded by the
scientific community as being outside their established fields of inquiry.
They use the "Journal of Scientific Exploration" as an avenue to discuss
anomalous phenomena and present research results to the scientific and
scholarly community; its members are drawn from practitioners of science
who have acquired a first-hand knowledge and understanding of the
scientific process. The Society holds annual international meetings and
periodically scheduled regional meetings.
To promote co-operation, and to accommodate other levels of activity and
interest, the Society has created the categories of "Corresponding Member"
and "Associate".  "Associates" receive the "Journal of Scientific
Exploration" (two issues a year) and "The Explorer" (two issues a year). An
Associate may submit letters and other items for publication in the
Newsletter, may submit articles for publication in the Journal (each
article must be sponsored by a "Full Member"), and may attend Society
meetings by arrangement with a "Full Member". A person wishing to become an
"Associate" may do so by completing an Application Form and sending it with
a check for the annual dues to the Secretary.
"Full Membership" is reserved for those associated with major universities,
government entities or corporate research institutions who have an
established reputation in a traditional branch of science.
"Emeritus Membership" provides the privileges of Full Membership to
similarly qua]ified retirees at a lower annual rate.
"Student Membership" is limited to graduate students enrolled in academic
institutions.
"Corresponding Membership" is open to members of designated organizations.
A "Corresponding Member" receives, and is entitled to submit articles to
the "Journa] of Scientific Exploration".

11.52: The Societv for the Investigation of the Unexplained (SITU)
------------------------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 265
Little Silver, New Jersey 07739
Nancy Warth (Membership Secretary)
201-842-5229
Publication is Pursuit
Founded in 1965 by Ivan T. Sanderson
A non-profit, tax-exempt organization; collects data on unexplained events,
promotes proper investigation of both individua] reports and general
subjects, and reports significant data to its members. SITU studies
unexplained events that orthodox science does not (or will not)
investigate.
SITU maintains reference files which include original reports, newspaper
and other clipping correspondence, audio tapes, films, photographs,
drawings, maps, etc. Copies of these items a available to members only.
Membership fees include the magazine "Pursuit", which is published
regularly.

11.53: System Ready
-------------------
7154 North University Drive Suite 116
Tarnarac, Florida 33321
Concentrates on building devices which can be used to detect UFOs. Their
book, "Detecting UFOs" details these devices.

11.54: Transcendental Communications A Division of LAMAT Research
-----------------------------------------------------------------
444 North Amelia #9C
San Dimas, California 91773
Don Grantharn (Director & Systems Operator)
714-599-6769 : 714-599-6270 (Operates at 300/1200/2400 BPS) : 714-599-5045
Transcendental Communications Newsletter
A scientific, investigative organization interested in UFOs and related
phenomena. Transcendental Communications is the largest UFO-related
computer network bulletin board system (BBS) on the west coast. The aim of
Transcendental Comrnunications is to get the word out to those interested
in current UFO information; a clearinghouse for books, documents,
publications, audio ar video tape interviews, seminars, documentaries and
UFO films and footage.
The main focus of Transcendental Communications is the operation of a BBS
through which interested parties can participate in on-line conversation.
read various reports, news items or articles, or leave messages for other
members.
Transcendental Communications publishes the "Transcendental Communications
Newsletter" which outlines topics that have been discussed on the BBS and
provides current UFO-related articles. FAX number available so that
interested parties can send them copies of reports, inforrnation, etc.
Basic Member Dues       $13.50
System Member   $39.50
Full Member $49.50
Newsletter for one year; list of publications, audio and video tapes; six
months BBS access

11.55: UFO Contact Center International (UFOCCI)
------------------------------------------------
3001 South 288th Street #304
Federal Way, Washington 98003
Aileen Bringle (Director)
206-946-2248
The Missing Link
June 1981
A non-profit organization dedicated to helping people who have had
traumatic, bizarre experiences or sightings of UFOs. A secondary goal of
UFOCCI is to promote public awareness of the UFO contactee phenomenon.
UFOCCI works with each contactee to help them understand their experiences
via hypnosis, group meetings and open seminars. Each year, over the Labor
Day weekend, UFOCCI conducts a conference called "Jorpah" (which means
'Cosmic Gathering') in which the past year's activities are summed up and
discussed. These gatherings are held at different places throughout the
country. The date and time of these conferences are announced in The
"Missing Link" newsletter.
UFOCCI holds monthly meetings the fourth Saturday of each month.

Associate Directors (by State and Canada):

Ak  Thomas Wilson 845 West 70th Anchorage, Alaska 99518  ph:907-522-3 172
Az  Helene CharboMeau P.O. Box 1369 Safford, AZ 85548-1369  ph:602-428-6437
    Ray Jordan 3831 North Paradise Road Flagstaff, AZ 86004  ph:602-774-6334
    Tom Dongo Box 2571 Sedona, AZ 86336  ph:602-282-562 1
Ca  Mark Andrews 811 Victoria Costa Mesa, CA 92627  ph:714-645-7046
    Michael & DoMa Farrner 123 Henshaw #402 Chico, CA 95926  ph:916-894-3327
    Ron Rodriquez 3948 Berrywood Santa Maria, CA 93455  ph:805-937-8050
    Allen Drake 13222 Louvre Street Pacoima, CA 91331  ph:818-896-3572
    Robert Shiepe 2865 Corning Street Los Angeles, CA 90034  ph:213-836-8362
Co  Jackie Blue P.O. Box 1015 Paonia, CO 81428  ph:303-527-4412
    AM Ulrich P.O. Box 117 Paonia, CO 81428  ph:303-527-3257
De  Cary Dickey P.O. Box 5535 Wilmington, Delaware 19808  ph:302-994-7509
Il  Carolyn Baum-Hawtree 1732 New Lenox Road Joliet, llinois 60433
ph:815-726-1756
Io  Jason Hooten 525 Avenue D Fort Madison, Iowa 52627  ph:319-372-5558
Ma  Robert Poutenis Route 9 Box 586 Pownal, Maine 04069
Md  Patrick O'Connell 12628 Black Saddle Lane Germantown, Maryland 20874
      ph:301-972-1980
Mo  Barbara Becker 6219 Enright Avenue St. Louis, Missouri 63130
    Claudia Sanderson-Jones 606 N.E. 114th Street Kansas City, Missouri 64155
      ph:816-734-9000
Ne  Kristy Buckles 3701 NW Conifer Court Lincoln 68521 ph:402-489-3 162
Nv  Valdemar Valerian P.O. Box 81407 Las Vegas, NV 89180-1407
ph:702-878-4380
Nj  Linda Dudar 20 Jackson Avenue Washington 07882  ph:201-689-7144
    Maryellen Kelly P.O. Box 1874 Champaign 61820 ph:217-359-9343
    Katie Sandberg Route 4 Box 1065-42 West Plains 65775  ph:417-256-0945
Nm  Mary Ellen Masters 504 Kiva Avenue Aztec 87410  ph:505-334-9841
    Cliff Stone 1421 East Tilden Roswell 88201 505-625-0920
Pennsylvania:
    Terri Shupenko 731 East 10th Street Erie 16503
    Dennis Viglo 326 College Street Youngsville 16371 814-563-4322
Tennessee:
    Herrnan L. Langley P.O. Box 422 Smyrna 37167 615-459-0165
    Brent Raynes 326 Haggard Street Waynesboro 38485 615-722-5976
Tx  Anne Bower 815 Peach Spring Houston 77088 713-931-0930
    Harv Howard P.O. Box 904 Manchaca 78652 5 12-282-203 1
    Judy Stryker 3409 Ruth Road Fort Worth 76118
    Sunshine Williams P.O. Box 162485 Austin 78716
    Donna Brown P.O. Box 337 Vidor 77670-0337 409-769-5828
    Goldie King P.O. Box 4455 Pasadena 77501 713-475-2785
    Donna Tietze P.O. Box 260 Friendswood 77546-0260 713-482-8641
Ut  Kaye Studstrup 2114 East 6805 South Salt Lake City 84121
Wa  Lozanna Elwood 3001 South 288th #304 Federal Way, 98003 ph:206-946-2248
    Jarnes C. Van Avery 6226 110th Avenue N.E. Kirkland 98033
ph:206-889-2026
Wisconsin:
    Linda Houston N7576 Timber Drive, Rib Lake 54470  ph:801 -263-2551
    Dr. Robert & Felicia Moore P.O. Box 825 Marshfield 54449 715-387-4639
Wy  Sheri Gould 705 South Burritt, Buffalo 82834 307-684-2755
Canada:
    Shirle Klein Carsh 6973 -129th Street Surrey, B.C. V3W 9A9 604-597-5822
??  Bill Hamilton III 249 North Brand Blvd Suite 651 Glendale 91203
Ph:818-547-6935
    Heidi Duval & Henrietta Raines P.O. Box 12 Crested Butte 81224

11.56: UFO Fllter Center
------------------------
618 Davis Drive
Mount Vernon, Indiana 47620
Neil Gilchrist P.O. Box 764 Nelson, B.C. VlL 5R4 604-825-9292
Francis L. Ridge (Director) :
812-838-3120 / 812-838-9843
Publication is: UFO Intelligence Summary and was founded in 1971
A one-man effort which investigates UFO activity, mainly in the Indiana
area. The goals of this group are to conduct a systematic computer study of
UFO data from a six-state region: Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Ohio,
Kentucky, and Tennessee; this study covers sightings beginning before 1947
to the present.

11.57: UFO Information Retrieval Center (UFOIRC)
------------------------------------------------
3131 West Cochise Drive #158
Phoenix, Arizona 85051-9501
Thomas M. Olsen (President)
602-997-1523 : 602-870-3178
Publication is: Reference for Outstanding UFO Sighting Reports
Founded in: 1966
A non-membership organization which collects, analyzes, publishes and
disseminates information about UFOs. UFOIRC also compiles statistics,
conducts research programs, sponsors photo exhibits, maintains a 200-volume
Library, and provides special educational services geared to children and
students.
UFOIRC publishes books, symposium proceedings, reprints of magazine
articles, and a bibliography of currently available information on the UFO
phenomenon.

11.58: UFO Investigators League
--------------------------------
Box 753 New Brunswick,
New Jersey 08903
Timothy Green Beckley
Publishes: UFO Spotters Newsletter
Started in 1990
A new organization under the auspices of Timothy Green Beckley who is
striving to expand his international network of investigators who wish to
investigate UFO cases in their areas.
Members receive membership card. investigators certificate, field manual,
and a subscription to the "UFO Spotters Newsletter". Membership is $20.00
per year.

11.59: THE UFO, PARANORMAL AND CONSPIRACY BBS
---------------------------------------------
Internet Contact: [e-mail] (Elite Enterprises)
           Modem: 312/604-8161  (24 HOURS)

11.60: UFO REPORTING AND INFORMATION SERVICE (UFORIS)
----------------------------------------------
Information Director : Dale Goudie. Contact address : P.O. Box 832, Mercer
Island, WA, 98040, USA. see also Computer UFO Network. Phone (voice)
[phone]

NI: UFO Research Australia
--------------------------
UFO Research Australia
PO BOX 2435, CAIRNS QLD 4870
AUSTRALIA

Administrator:  Vladimir Godic
Research Director: Keith Basterfield
Secretary: Pony Godic
UFORA operate as a network of interested persons and groups, in al
Australian States, sharing the information they acquire. Vladimir Godic
co-ordinates general network administration and Keith Basterfield overall
research.

The aims of the network are:
(A) To stimulate Australian research into the UFO phenomenon, on a without
    prejudice basis, in order to better unerstand the causes(s) of the
    phenomenon.
(B) To aid research by promoting co-operation between interested parties.

The philosophy of the network can be best summarised by the term "Middle of
the Road". It is neither a collection of "avid believers" nor "confirmed
sceptics". Since its inception the network has consistently argued that the
UFO phenomenon is of interest to science, that it is amenable to study
following scientific method, and that valuable information may be gained
irrespective of the ultimate cause of the phenomenon.

Results of research are published via a bi-monthly Research Digest, a
periodical Journal, documents, catalogues and articles in a number of
leading overseas UFO journals.

There is no open membership of the network. However, individuals seriously
interested in the UFO phenomenon are invited to contact UFORA.

11.61: UFO Study Group of Greater St. Louis
------------------------------------
P.O. Box 31544 St. Louis, Missouri 63131
John Schroeder (President)
Helen Hanke (Secretary)
314-352-3058
Publishes the The UFO Enigma.
A non-profit organization formed in 1968 to investigate UFOs and to collect
and disseminate information germane to the UFO phenomena. They hold
meetings at the Farm and Home building, 110 West Lockwood (at Gore),
Webster Groves, Missouri at 2:00 p.m. on the second Sunday of the months
September through May.
This group operates in close cooperation with MUFON, CUFOS, and with
numerous organizations around the world in order to coordinate UFO research
and information.

11.62: Ufology Research of Manitoba (UFOROM)
--------------------------------------------
UFOROM is a private, non-profit and volunteer organisation which is
involved in rational discourse, investigation and research on UFOs and
related phenomena. It was formed in 1975.  All types of UFO-related
phenomena have been studied by UFOROM, including traces, crash-retrievals,
abductions and cattle mutilations.  In addition, some UFOROM associates
also study fortean and psychic phenomena.  UFOROM publishes an annual
survey of UFO activity in Canada, comparable to the Ferrughelli reports
on American cases.  Case data is provided by co-operative Canadian
researchers across Canada.

UFOROM is not open to general public membership.  However, independent
investigators and researchers throughout North America and particularly
in Canada are associated with UFOROM by way of their contributions of
case information and data from their own areas.  Such contributions are
welcomed and readily acknowledged by UFOROM.

Although UFOROM does not publish a journal or newsletter for general
distribution, associates frequently exchange information on an informal
basis.  This information is made available through articles and reports
published in UFO magazines or books, written or edited by UFOROM
associates.

UFOROM is associated with an irregular ufozine titled the SWAMP GAS
JOURNAL. [See UFO Publications section]  It is available in hard copy
through zine exchange or for a "cost" of one International Postal Reply
Coupon per issue.  As an experiment, the most recent issue also has
been made available in electronic format via INTERNET by posting a
request to: [e-mail]

UFOROM associates are involved with the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO
Studies (CUFOS), the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) and various other
organisations.  UFOROM functions independently, but operates with an
understanding of complete co-operation and information exchange with
interested and serious researchers in their specialised areas of
interest.

UFOROM is devoted to the rational and objective study of UFOs and
related phenomena, as well as other controversial phenomena such as
crop circles.  All views on these phenomena, including both proponent
and contrary standpoints, are considered.  In this regard, UFOROM
associates tend to engage in dialogue with both "believers" and
"debunkers".  It is hoped that such attempts to "bridge the gap"
between the two sides of the debate will encourage more constructive
discourse.

Correspondence for UFOROM can be snailmailed to:

                              UFOROM
                             Box 1918
                         Winnipeg, Manitoba
                           Canada  R3C 3R2

11.63: United Aerial Phenomena Agency (UAPA)
-------------------------------------
P.O. Box 347032
Cleveland, Ohio 44134-7032
Allan J. Manak (Chairman)
Rick R. Hilberg (Vice Chairman)
Founded 1966
A non-profit organization dedicated to the investigation and study of UFOs
and related subjects. Its two publications are "Flying Saucer Digest"
(quarterly) and "Weirdology" (bi- monthly). UAPA sells a wide variety of
books, maps, back issues, rare items, etc. A catalog is available for
$1.00.

11.64: Universal Articulate Interdimensional Understanding of Science
--------------------------------------------------------------
UNARIUS Academy of Sciences
145 South Magnolia Avenue
El Cajon, California 92020-4522
Dr. Ernest L. Norman (Co Founder)
Ruth E. Norman (Co Founder)
Charles Spaegel (Vice President)
619-447-4170
Publishes the UNARIUS Light Magazine since1954.
A non-profit, New Age organization which has pioneered the teaching of Past
Life Therapy since 1954. This teaching is given to the student through a
curriculum that attunes the truth seeker to the high frequency energy
maintained by the authors, who are Advanced Spiritual Beings living on the
Inner Planes. UNARIUS receives most of its information and instructions
through channeling with the Higher Beings (Space Brothers). UNARIUS writes,
publishes, and distributes a complete course of study describing the New
Sciences of Life. This course material is covered over 100-plus texts of
the UNARIUS Academy of Sciences; augmented by over 100 video programs. The
course material covers missing piece's of man's prehistory, the enigma
surrounding the dilemma of unresolved problems in science, politics and
religion, and the future for mankind in the 21st century.
Class sessions are held at the UNARIUS Center on Wednesdays & Sundays at
7:00 p.m.; class fee is S10.00. Some courses are also available on TV
stations throughout California. All of the materials are directly related
to the UNARIUS goal of achieving Higher Awareness.
One of this group's main tenets is that there are superior extraterrestrial
forces which control the Earth's destiny and which know the fate of
mankind. With the teachings provided by UNARIUS, they feel that each person
can become cosmically attuned to higher spiritual forces and can become
aware of Reality and what is in store for humans. UNARIUS teaches that the
Interplanetary Confederation, a coalition of 33 existing planets, is
building 33 spacecraft that will form a giant city and will descend to
Earth in the year 2001. This "building" or "city" will descend on land
purchased for this purpose in the southern California area and will be a
gathering spot for people to come and learn about Cosmic Awareness.
In addition to students, interested parties can join UNARIUS for $50.00 per
year.

11.65: Victorian U.F.O. Research Society Inc. (VUFORS)
-------------------------------------------------------
AVUFORS is the largest UFO society in the Southern hemishpere and has
been in existence since the 1950s. (membership approx. 400)
Regular discussion nights are held and the Society publishes a
quarterly magazine called The Australian U.F.O. Bulletin which
details UFO related information from Australia and abroad.

Membership:
        Overseas (non Australian) $US20
        (Personal cheques cannot be accepted unless an additional
        $US5 is included to cover bank charges - We request you remit
        bank cheques or International Postal Orders)

        Membership entitles you to receive a copy of "The Australian
        UFO Bulletin", our quarterly magazine to members. The
        bulletin contains information from within Australia and
        overseas.

        Total number of members is currently around 400.

History:
        The "Australian Flying Saucer Research Society (Victorian
Branch)" was formed on the 17th of February, 1957 as a branch of the
"Australian Flying Saucer Research Society" and later that year was
reorganised as the "Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society" with
Mr. Peter E. Norris L.L.B. as President. In 1968 the name was again
altered - this time to the "Victorian U.F.O. Research Society".
The current executive has been in place since 1978.
The Society has held a dispassionate attitude on U.F.O.s, claiming
it is a scientific problem deserving closer attention.
Membership of this Society - which maintains the largest membership
of any U.F.O. organisation in the Southern Hemisphere - is open to
all who are genuinely interested in the subject.

Significant cases studied:
        - The Frederick Valentich disappearance (1978).  Frederick
Valentich was a twenty year old member of the Royal Australian Air
Force who disappeared on a solo private flight across Bass Strait
after radioing that an object was hovering on top of his Cessna 182.

        - The Knowles Family Encounter.  The case of a family on a
car trip across the Nullarbor Plain in South Australia who were
buzzed by a UFO that at one stage lifted the Knowles car into the
air only to drop it to the road seconds later.

Postal Address:             Internet contact:
        P.O. Box 43                    email: [e-mail]
        Moorabbin                      phone: [phone]
        Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3189       fax  : [phone]


=== Disclaimer
--------------
Disclaimer: Please Note that I don't claim that any of this research strictly
as my own. It comes from many books, articles, electronic postings and
people. I have tried to always include where the source of the information
at the bottom of the sections when I could.

=== FAQ Requests
----------------
If you wish to request the current copy of this FAQ, Please include in
your email message the maximum number of lines per message systems mail
program can handle so I won't crash your mailbox.  Also remember this is
a big FAQ, make sure you have the disk space. Just so you know I don't
plan on doing any major work on this FAQ till December, I need to catch
up on other work. Send Request for FAQ's ONLY to:

[e-mail]

=== FAQ Suggestions & Corrections
---------------------------------
If you have any suggestions or would like to add something to the FAQ,
PLEASE DO NOT RESEND ME A COMPLETE COPY OF THE FAQ WITH YOUR COMENTS MIXED
IN. I  already have the latest version. So please just slectively edit the
approprate portions of the FAQ into your message, and include the section
numbers. Also please send me any corrections you may have for the FAQ. If
you or your orgionization is mentioned in the above FAQ and you feel I have
misrepresented you please let me know so I can correct the problem.
Send all corrections & suggestions to:

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 4 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: 1880s Encounter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:52:17 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 0

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:53:09 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 0

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:54:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 17

Subject: 1800s Encounter:
 One time I was calling into the telephone talk show called The Herb Jepko
Show and I told Herb that I was going to play a little trick on him so he
said, "Go ahead, be my guest".
   I told him the following story; Once upon a time a person saw a light come
down out of the sky and some people got out of a vehicle and come over and
talked to him. What Herb, do you think that was. Herb answered that it
sounded like  any another story of a peson coming in contact with the beings
from a UFO. I then told him the rest of the story and that is the beings had
shining apparel and showed him some golden tables that had writing on them.
Herb then said, "Oh but that was the angels of the Lord coming down and
dealing with Joseph Smith".  I then agreed with him and referred him to a
small book by Joseph Smith that told of his experience. I've forgotten the
name of the book but it had a name like Pearl of Great Price or Golden
Jewels. Maybe some of you can remind me what the name of the book is. Herb
Jepko's Show was broadcast from Salt Lake City. Utah.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Abort
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 92 03:33:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: parrot.wpi.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Ex-aliens:  It was mentioned that it would be good to have a
>dictionary of another language. I was given some words used by another
>planet called Legart. About one in a hundred of the words are the same
>as ours. I remember one of the words that was the same was the word
>abort.
>John Winston

Ah, but does it mean the same thing?

Marge: "You speak English?"
Alien: "No, we speak Betelgeusian, but by a staggering coincidence,
the two languages are exactly the same."
            --The Simpsons Halloween Special #1

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])  # "Are you absolutely sure that you want to
a.k.a.:  The Eternal Newbie,  # do this? [ny]"
The Amazing Tubeman!,         # No, but can I do it anyway?
Murphy's Law Incarnate        #
Any similarities what I say and what I mean are purely coincidental.
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From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Date: 20 Nov 1992 20:21:04 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: milhouse.caltech.edu
Originator: magney@milhouse

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Magnus Alvestad) writes:
>     Flash> looking at alien craft at the top of a crater?      I
>     Flash> think armstrong said something like "..my god there's
>     Flash> hundreds     of them". I'm not to sure because as i
> No, no; he said 'Oh my god - it's full of stars!' - of course this was
> cencored by the CIA. Dr Asimov, however, who was at that time involved
> in a number of Top Secret projects, including the Philadelphia
> project, later used it in his book '2001'. It's all there.
>
Ahem.  Arthur C. Clarke wrote "2001".  Of course, he might have been
involved in secret projects too.
--
| Michael Agney          | Yd - gender neutral pronoun    |
|                        |      (well, not quite)         |
|                        | Source:  Stories by Alison     |
| [e-mail] | Tellure, back issues of Analog |
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Mind Control of UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Yey Sir: You people listen to this man Joseph. He's telling the truth.
>So help me Bibo.
>John Winston.

For years, we in alt.religion.kibology have wondered who Bibo is; after
all, all the other ?ibo names are taken.  And here it is from the lips
of John Underscore Hyphen Underscore Winston himself:

        "me Bibo."

John, from now on, you're an official ibo.  Feel allowed to change your
fullanme from "John_-_Winston" to "John 'Bibo' Winston".
                            -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes...
>has richard hoagland actually been making these more-than-usually
>bizarre claims? the only thing of his that I have read is 'monuments
>of mars' which is (taken all in all) fairly restrained.
>josh

I'm not sure of the origin of this. I think it's off USENET, but I'm not sure.
We have a grand total of two grainy photos shot from an altitude of 1000 miles
from which Hoagland derived all this.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]

                           The "Message of Cydonia":
          First Communication from an Extraterrestrial Civilization?

                            By Richard C. Hoagland*
                              and Erol O. Torun @

                              [Copyright (C) 1989
                             All Rights Reserved]

                                   Abstract

        In 1976   an   unmanned   NASA   Viking  spacecraft  successfully
   photographed the surface of the planet  Mars.   In  the  subsequent 13
   years, a mystery has loomed . . . a mile-long, 1500-ft  high  humanoid
   "face" discovered in  a  northern  Martian  desert  called  "Cydonia."
   Initially dismissed by NASA as "a  trick  of  light  and  shadow," new
   analysis presented here reveals a far more complex  situation,  and  a
   far more significant conclusion:

        The "face" and its surrounding "enigmatic landforms" appear to be
   a carefully layed   out,   highly-sophisticated,  redundantly  encoded
   "mathematical and geometric CETI message"  on the Martian landscape --
   in the tradition of century-old proposals by Gauss, Lockyer, et al..

        This paper presents the evidence whereby the authors have reached
   this "radical conclusion."  We -- one of us a former  NASA consultant,
   the other a  geomorphologist  --  detail  the  extensive  geodedic and
   mathematical analysis of "the Face"  we  have  conducted over the past
   several years: specifically,  its  geometric  relationship  to  other,
   equally enigmatic objects  in  the  immediate vicinity.  This evidence
   includes multiple appearances of two  specific mathematical constants:
   "e" and "pi," derived by angular measurement of the  placement  of key
   morphological objects around the "face" and the discovery of redundant
   angles and derived  constants  from  that  placement.   We  have  also
   discovered the two  constants --  "e"  and  "pi"  --  "coded"  in  the
   geodedic siting latitude of the "complex" on the planet.

        It is  this  multiple,  diversified,  but  converging   geodedic,
   geometric and mathematical evidence that, in the authors' opinion, now
   robustly supports the "radical conclusion" presented above.

        The geometry  and  mathematical  constants  we have discovered at
   Cydonia appear to  be  a highly-specific  communication  of  "embedded
   tetrahedral geometry."  It's   apparent   purpose:    the    geometric
   prediction of a specific geodedic latitude -- 19.5 degrees N. and S. -
   - resulting from  the  location  of  the  vertices of a "circumscribed
   tetrahedran" rotated inside  a planetary  or  stellar  sphere.    This
   conclusion is reinforced  by  the geomorphological  observation  of  a
   major "tetrahedral pyramid"  at Cydonia -- connected geometrically (by
   a 19.5-degree angle offset to the local  geodedic meridian) to equally
   obvious morphological representations of "spheres" at Cydonia itself.

        The purpose of all this appears to be to direct attention towards
   "something occurring at these two specific planetary latitudes."  When
   examined by the authors, using published geodedic planetary  maps from
   NASA and U.S  Geological  Survey sources, these latitudes are observed
   to be associated with a hitherto unknown  planetary and stellar energy
   phenomenon -- blatantly  emerging at these specific  latitudes  --  on
   astronomical objects all  across  the solar system, including the Sun.
   Further, the appearance of these "energy outpourings" seems to be
   modulated by the  polarity  of the  planetary  (or  stellar)  magnetic
   dipole moment --  raising, in the author's minds, the possibility that
   the "message" is attempting to direct us to a verifiable astrophysical
   manifestation of a  basic,  "unified   field,"   connecting  planetary
   angular momentum, gravity,  and electromagnetism with  surface  energy
   release.

        The possibility that "the message" is directing us to, not merely
   energy transfer but  energy  generation,  is  also  considered in this
   paper.  Several convergent observations  of  the  outer  planets, most
   recently from Voyager 2, are presented to buttress our contention that
   we may be  looking  at  a  new astrophysically - significant  form  of
   energy.  Evidence is  also  presented that some manifestations of this
   energy may be altering the local "gravitational  space-time metric" --
   consistant with current  theoretical  interpretations  of  tetrahedral
   mathematics by specialists,  as  "representative of higher-dimensional
   n-spaces."

        The implications of these "real world" geophysical manifestations
   of "unified field  tetrahedral  mathematics"  --  specific,  localized
   energy release on  planetary  surfaces, apparently unrecognized  until
   the "Cydonia tetrahedral  mathematics"  were decoded by the authors --
   are profound: ranging from a possible  breakthrough  in the centuries-
   long search for a Unified Field Theory connecting the  four  elemental
   forces of Nature;  to  possible  technological  applications  of  this
   knowledge -- including a new energy  source,  and  possibly,  ultimate
   control of gravity itself.

        We conclude  by  urging immediate verification  of  the  "Cydonia
   Message," via the  1992  unmanned Mars Observer spacecraft, as well as
   detailed follow-up to our preliminary work presented here.

               * The Mars Mission: Box 981, Wytheville, VA 24382
                @ The Defense Mapping Agency: McLean, VA 22102

                      (PAPER TO BE UPLOADED SHORTLY....)

                    Contributed to KeelyNet by Lance Oliver
                                [phone]



Best regards, Stefan Hartmann,c/o Workshop for
Decentral Energy Research
email to: [e-mail]
============================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Phoenix Project
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:48:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 105


 * Originally by Michael Corbin, 1:104/422
 * Originally to Michael Corbin, 1:104/428
 * Originally dated 20 Nov 1992, 11:48

This file was contributed by Don Kircher, a ParaNet subscriber.

Our thanks to Don for his investigation into the Phoenix Project.

Michael Corbin

                                           10/23/92


           Copyrighted Radio Transmissions from Aliens




                            Abstract
    K-2; the alleged alien base in the Plumas National Forest is
branded a hoax by default when the recorded radio transmission is
found to be a copy of a tape which was available in bookstores
across the country.


                            Key Words
Phoenix Project,K-2,Underground Base,Alien,Plumas National Forest
Pilot Point, PP report #920627, hoax




    From the moment I became aware of the Roswell case I have
maintained an ongoing interest in crashed ufos, direct contact,
and abductions. I tend to be more open to statements than some,
taking an innocent until proven guilty attitude, rather than the
more adversarial "show me" stance. ( I am not from Missouri ).
This means I listen to everything. I save everything. I cross
index everything. But I challenge very little. The jury remains
out until something is produced which can withstand the
scientific method, or is good enough to go before a courtroom
judge. The result is a very large "wait and see" file, and
occasionally a solidly closed case.

    My wait and see attitude combined with a healthy dose of dumb
luck has permitted me to move the K-2 report squarely from the
wait and see file into the closed section. Cross indexed under
HOAX.

    I have closely monitored the netmail concerning the K-2
report since the story first broke in June. Direct e mail
with the spokesman for the Phoenix Project and conversations with
other interested parties have consumed a sizeable portion of my
storage space. Yet I remained unwilling to send the Phoenix
Project the money it desired for an original copy of the reports.

    Conversations with David Brune led to an arrangement for him
to send me his copy of the K-2 report along with a copy of the
taped radio transmission which led the Phoenix Project to
investigate the K-2 site to begin with. I received the packet in
early October and was surprised to find the contents of the tape
familiar to me.

    It should be noted that the tape received from David is
labeled K-2 Radio Transmission Monaural (58:20) and was associated
with a descriptive paper noting its origin having been recorded
on June, 5, 1989 at 0200 PDT from shortwave frequency 16.222
Megahertz at Forbestown, California. A note  from the technical
data states that "Oscilloscope observation of the recorded signal
reveals the presence of pulsed digital information impressed on
the predominant analog audio signal components". It then goes on
to say that "This digital data may be encrypted".

    This description of the K-2 radio transmission is
inconsistent with my own findings. The actual contents of the K-2
tape are a monaural reproduction of a tape which I purchased
several years ago from a local bookstore. I am happy to say that
after some digging in my garage I was able to locate my STEREO
commercial production tape, and that it is still in good
condition. My own tape is labeled ASTRAL SOUNDS and was
copyrighted 1973 by The American Research Team. The tape was
distributed under license by POTENTIALS UNLIMITED, INC.
Potentials Unlimited marketed a wide variety of self help/self
hypnosis/subliminal message tapes in the late eighties. Their
products were available in the big chain bookstores such as
Waldons and B Daltons. The original intent of the ASTRAL SOUNDS
tape was to synchronized sound with brain wave frequencies for some
interesting effects during listening/meditation.

    Both tapes have been donated to Paranet for the listening
pleasure of serious researchers. If you have been considering
purchasing ANYTHING from the PHOENIX PROJECT. I strongly advise
you to reconsider.


Regards


Donald Kircher

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Harold Herndon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: I know why thier here!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:06:18 PST
Organization: BBS
Lines: 40

    I've been reading this sub for a while now. I've heard every possible
explination for why the "Greys" are here. They range from, they're curious
about us and just want to study us to they're here to eat us and take over the
planet or they have already taken over the planet. Most of these are incorrect,
except about the eating part.
    I am a 24 year old African-American male. I live in Oakland,California.
What I am about to tell you is pure fact.
    It was 1982 and I was living near Shreveport,LA in a small town named
Vivian. I went on a fishing trip with my father about 9 miles into the woods. I
had just caught a small catfish when a bright twinkle caught my eye. I looked
up and froze stiff and my mouth dropped open. I saw a black flying saucer
shaped object. I don't know how many feet across it was but it was at least 200
feet. Then to my utter horror the thing started to decend. It then proceeded to
land in a large clearing about 1/4 mile away. My father just stood there
luaghing at me. He looked to be in some sort of shock. Anyway I left him and
something made me run towards the ship. As I came to it there was a small man
rounding the ship. But it looked like man, it looked just like one of the greys
I've just now started to see on TV. Something told me to say something so I
choked down my fear and said "Hello". The little grey man jumped and to my
suprise said "Hi' how are you?". It spoke perfect english.
    After a few seconds of stareing at it I then said why are you here? The man
said my name is Tral(like Al). "I am here to warn your governments about a
great problem. The leaders on my planet are going to invade your planet and use
your people like cattle. The "council" made a deal with a well known buisness
leader on your plant 30 years ago. His name was Sanders, yes Col. Sanders the
fried chicken king. He has made a dark deal to open a chain of fried human
franchises across the galaxy. And your people are about to be slaughtered by
the millions". I said this sound like bull to me. He said " No Earth man it is
true. They will come in the year 2000. They love human meat they can find no
other meat so tender and juicy, and add Col. Sanders eleven herbs and spices
and they cannot resist. Beware human they ARE coming.."
    The ship left and I ran to my father who was sitting in the truck. He asked
me what he said and I told him the wasen't gonna believ me.
                                 Thank you,
                                  Hitman


P.S. All writing above this line utter bullshit. Get a life. Aliens are not
comming to get us. You idiots are starting to sound crazy. None of you have
ever met an alien and never will. Go out, see  movie, have some sex geeks.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12849 alt.alien.visitors:11243 sci.skeptic:34556
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 06:28:12 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Concerned Parties of the First Part:
I believe you will find that the underscores (_ _) that are with my name are a
result of how Portal chooses to identify a person and not something I
dreamed up. I'll have to admit that was a pretty funny come back. It's
saturday and I just got paid so  how good can it get?
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12850 alt.alien.visitors:11244
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cayce's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 06:32:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: It saturday and maybe tomorrow I pump out some new information.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12851 alt.alien.visitors:11245 alt.religion.kibology:4796
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 06:36:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Big Bird Watchers: It's getting close to Thanksgiving and I assume
that some of you are thinking about a different type of bird now.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Phobos II
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Account)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:19:57 GMT
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>[e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
>and [e-mail] (Net Noise owner) write:
>
>>You have a very impressive imagination if you can see all this in Viking
>>pictures.  There is no reason to think that anything on the surface of Mars
>>is artificial except for Vikings 1 and 2 and the remains of early Soviet
>>landers.
>
>Bzzzt!  Wrong.  There seems to be ample information to conclude that, indeed,
>not  only are there ancient ET cities on Mars, but underground cities as well
>and, according to a U.S Army General (retired), that I was with, he said that
>there  is  clear  evidence  of mechanical devices on the surface of Mars, and
>that they are moving.  Tell me, how many pictures did Viking take?  How  many
>have  been  released  to the the public (we paid for them didn't we?). Again,
>the real issue is a government that lies to it's people.  If they would  only
>tell the Truth...
>

Viking took hundreds if not thousands of photographs.  All are archived
and available for research.  Most of them are available on a set of six
CDROM's for 6$ a disk.  I know, I have them.

Other than a pile of dirt which in two pictures "kinda" looks like a pile
of dirt, what evidence do you have?

If there really were mechanical devices roaming mars, there would be
some very excited scientist out there.

--
====
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
[e-mail]                       _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Account)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:26:17 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:
>
>Oh, please. Been reading Hoagland, eh? Gawd, it just grows and grows. Last I
>saw, he and someone else had formulated a unified field theory from the two
>Viking photos of the Cydonia region. There seems to be no limit on the amount
>of new scientific breakthroughs we can get out of those two grainy photos.

Ha!  And the Face is responsible for the crop-circles in England too.
(Hoagland actually claims there are connected.  He found a few angles
that seem to match.  Of course, you just have to keep looking until
you find a pair you like...)
>
>How many pictures: thousands. How many released: all of them. They're available
>on CD ROMs. Get them and look for yourself. But of course, this must be another
>government lie...
>

Just to clarify, not all are available on CDROM, only a selection.  I haven't
gone through all of them yet, I've only had them a couple of weeks, but I'm
almost certain that the two Cydonia pictures aren't on the disks.  The
two face pictures, 35a72 and 70a13, are from the early phase of the
mission.  The disks contain images from the later phases.

All of the images are stored on tape at the National Space Science Data
Center (NSSDC).  I'm not sure how to go about get access to them, but
it is possible.


--
====
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
[e-mail]                       _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Account)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:58:56 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>has richard hoagland actually been making these more-than-usually
>bizarre claims? the only thing of his that I have read is 'monuments
>of mars' which is (taken all in all) fairly restrained.
>
>does anyone know his compu$erve address? I have heard rumors and second
>hand reports attributing all sorts of wierdness and conspiracy theories
>to him. it might be worth while to ask him about all of this stuff.
>

He does believe that there is a good chance that NASA is covering something
up.  He also believes that the "face" is tied into the crop-circles
over in England.

I finally broke down and bought the book just to read first hand what
he's saying.  I'm not very far into it, but he seems to shift between
semi-accurate science reporting and almost psychotic ramblings.

I on the other hand think that the "face" is pile of dirt.  Hopefully
the Mars Observer will be able to catch a frame or two of the same
area.

--
====
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
[e-mail]                       _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Account)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:02:03 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels) :
>>It was a little different when James Lovell on board the Apollo 8
>>command module came out from behind the moon and said for everybody
>>to hear: 'PLEASE BE INFORMED THAT THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS.'  Even
>>though this happened on Christmas Day 1968, many people sensed a
>>hidden meaning in those words."
>
>Oh, that's just priceless.  Really!

Ha!  That's wonderful!  Do you know if it's documented anywhere?  I'd
love to get a copy of it.


--
====
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
[e-mail]                       _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!jbh55289
From: [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Moon sightings 2/2
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:09:21 GMT
Lines: 24

Of course, we all know this is garbage, but I want to respond to two allegations
included - the one below, and the allegation that we didn't go back to the
Moon because we were sacred off.

[e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:

>Professor:     But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?

>Armstrong:     Naturally  - NASA was committed at that time,  and
>               couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really was  a
>               quick scoop and back again.

Actually, the Apollo missions got longer and longer, up to a mission of three
days on the surface by Apollo 17.  The reason we didn't go back after that was
funding cuts from a government and public that no longer cared, not fear of
alien attack.

I believe the Lunar Orbiter pictures are available to the public.  If there are
huge bases there please feel free to find them.  Otherwise get a clue.

--
Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]

    "Why put off 'til tomorrow what you're never going to do anyway?"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jnielsen
From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:14:00 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Opera_Ghost) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>>To: [e-mail]
>>From: hombas![e-mail]
>>
>>ST|Wake up everybody! This is the real world...there are no UFOs...
>>  `----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Really?  Prove it.
>
>CJR
>
>

That is not the point. You do not prove something's existance
by not being able to disprove it's existance.

I cannot disprove that a purple red wood with candy canes for leaves
exists in Australia. However, that does not make it unreasonable
to say that it does not exist. Without any proof an alien is in
the same catagory as the purple redwood.

john
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!CORBISIER
From: [e-mail]
Subject: hypnosis experimentation proof
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:36:15 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail] tech.edu>, Carl J Lydnick writes:

:...REAL research has proven that "real" memories of things that
:never happened can be produced via hypnosis.

Please name your sources, i.e. experimenters, location, dates, where
published, etc.  I am in the process of studying memory, hypnosis
and alien abduction, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no firm
proof about hypnosis either for or against.  I would be very interested
in knowing about these alleged studies you refer to.

Incidentally, what is "REAL" research?  Or fake research for that
matter?  :)

Barb
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12852 alt.alien.visitors:11253 sci.skeptic:34575
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cmcl2!panix!carlf
From: [e-mail] (Carl Fink)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 92 21:47:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Lines: 27

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:

>[sarcastic skeptic post deleted to save electricity]

>Have you ever done any *real* research, or are you just talking through
>your hat?  Ever read J. B. Rhine's studies on the Bridey Murphy case?
>Ever read Ian Stevenson's stuff?  If you haven't done any real research
>into the field, I respectfully submit that your opinion is nothing more
>than that - opinion, and a misinformed one, at that.

[Pointlessly doubled signature deleted for space]

  Ed, there's no way to tell who you're talking to here - how can
whoever it is answer you?  You not only deleted his/her post, you
failed to refer to his/her name.


  BTW - you are wrong.  Have YOU ever done any research on this?
"Bridey Murphy" is one of the best documented cases of cryptic memory
being mistaken for reincarnation on record.  Sorry.


--
Carl Fink          [e-mail], C.FINK4(GEnie), or [e-mail]
  "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
  inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter
  the state of facts and evidence"     --      John Adams
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: A letter to Clinton/Gore
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:10:01 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 39

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] has written:
+--------------------
| Instead of your IMHO's why don't you get off your dorkus & write a
| personal ltr to the Pressie yo self?
+--------------------

    It takes the work of many people to effectively deal with this
    sensitive issue.  It would be far better for the 'Pressie' (nice
    terminology) to receive 1 _good_ serious letter to consider,
    rather than several letters which require editing and other work
    to consider.

    I'm sorry if you have a problem with this.

+--------------------
| As for Jefferies post...good on'm....in addition we've got plenty
| of secret government to get to ourselves....so let's get to work.
+--------------------

    I'm sure your suggestions will be welcomed and considered.  But
    please... understand that a group effort is necessary, otherwise
    sit back and observe.  You might learn something.

+--------------------
| If half the population of the planet would stand-up and get on
| with it...the rest would follow!
+--------------------

    Sigh.

    Forrest

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![[e-mail]]
From: "roman andruszko" <[e-mail]>
Subject: alien.part1 ????
Message-ID: <1992Nov21.4962.11773@dosgate>
Reply-To: "roman andruszko" <[e-mail]>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: alt
Date: 21 Nov 92 17:44:57 EST
Lines: 13

I must have missed the start of the "Alien.Part1" discussion that
is still going on. Can somebody tell me what started the topic and
maybe review what the issues are. Thanks.
TTLY
[e-mail]

ÛRoman Andruszko °°°°°°±±±±±±±±²²²²²²²²²²ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ
ßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßßß
---
 þ DeLuxeý 1.26b #7079 þ Now using Qmail DeLuxeý...and loving it!
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12853 alt.alien.visitors:11256 sci.skeptic:34580
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 17:30:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: I have been reading all the comments of all people concerned
and you people better watch out because I just may take you off my
christmas present list.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cayce's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 17:34:27 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folk: Tomorrow I should have some time to do some more posting.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Jabir Hussain)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I know why thier here!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 92 21:28:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: magilla.ucsd.edu


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Harold Herndon) writes:
|> true. They will come in the year 2000. They love human meat they can find no
|> other meat so tender and juicy, and add Col. Sanders eleven herbs and spices
|> and they cannot resist. Beware human they ARE coming.."

Sorry to disappoint you, dude, but McDonalds has been selling franchises all
over the galaxy for years now.  The colonel bit the big one after they tried
his slogan "finger licking good" only to find out that most alien races do
not have any fingers to lick in the first place, and the phrase "idsfy licking
good" just doesn't have that ring...

Last I heard from Tral (he drops by occasionally) they are going to start
publication of "Weekly Galactic News" consisting entirely of articles by
our very own JW.  It seems the galactics like a good laugh as much as anyone
else...

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 17:47:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Serious Question Askers: I have not been hit upon by the large bird
in question. In regards to whether I now anyhone but the unusual the
answer is "Yes my wife".
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: hypnosis experimentation proof
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 03:24:15 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail] tech.edu>, Carl J Lydnick writes:
>
>:...REAL research has proven that "real" memories of things that
>:never happened can be produced via hypnosis.
>
>Please name your sources, i.e. experimenters, location, dates, where
>published, etc.  I am in the process of studying memory, hypnosis
>and alien abduction, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no firm
>proof about hypnosis either for or against.  I would be very interested
>in knowing about these alleged studies you refer to.

I do not have a citation, but I do remember reading of some research
about hypnosis.

Subjects were flashed (I assume slides) images of the back of a car.
The license plates were unreadable. It seems that the subjects would
recall a license number under hypnosis. I do not recall if it was some
or all. The conclusion I recall was that they would come up with the
numbers in order to please the hypnotist.

I am not trying to be vague, this is what I remember.

>Incidentally, what is "REAL" research?  Or fake research for that
>matter?  :)

I would assume that this means peer reviewed and presumably cross-checked
by parties with no vested interest in the outcome. Cold Fusion did not
stand up too peer review. But then, research is still going on.

But then, I do not speak for Carl, and may be wrong.

>Barb


Rich

[e-mail]


From: [e-mail] (Donald Pattee)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!infoserv!iphase!FredGate
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92  21:21:18 EST
Lines: 15


 -> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 17:44:27 PST

 -> Dear Aura Watchers: I once interviewed a lady astronaut and she said that
 -> she could see the life force around a cell under the microscope and when
 -> the cell was dead the life force was not visible. She also said she
 -> could see the life force of this earth when she was in orbit.
 -> John Winston.
 ->  * Origin: Gated from UUCP to iphase.fidonet.org by FredGate (1:112/28.0)
I have the strange earry feeling that one might not be able to see the life force of the earth in the not-so-far-off future...
Donald R.X>Pattee
Vote for Insanity...You know it makes since.


 * Origin: StarLight Acres BBS  <K.I.S.S.>  (904)-829-1442 (1:112/7)
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!psinntp!wrldlnk!usenet
From: "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:46:35 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)
Lines: 112

>DATE:   20 Nov 1992 08:01 MST
>FROM:   James J. Lippard <[e-mail]>
[Reincarnation stuff ...]

>
>I recommend Paul Edwards' four-part series on "The Case Against Reincarnation"
>in _Free Inquiry_ magazine, in which he addresses Stevenson's cases in the
>fourth part.  (Fall 1986, Winter 86/87, Spring 87, Summer 87)  Edwards
>also now has a book out on the subject.
>
>Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
>Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]

I posted this in a previous life, but I think it's time to regress and
fire it out there again.

------
I hope no one will mind my posting of the following letter to
_Free Inquiry_ from Bob Silberg of West Hills, CA.  No study of
reincarnation can possibly be complete without having read:

[The letter begins with a reference to a series of 4 articles
on reincarnation, written by Paul Edwards and published in _Free
Inquiry_ (approx.) Winter '86 - Summer '87]...

As Paul Edwards has related, the purpose of karmic reincarnation
is to process a soul (or self or spirit or ego or whatever) until
it is fit for Nirvana.  With each succeeding life, the soul is
supposed to gain purity and moral strength, growing ever closer
to the ideal.

The traditional route leads from the lowest life-form (or
lifestle) to the highest, with a life of luxury as the last stop
before eternal bliss.  If one leads an exemplary life as a street
urchin, for example, one is likely to reappear as a United States
Senator.

I believe this concept is backward!

Consider: If one wants to strengthen one's body by lifting
weights, one doesn't begin with the heaviest weights and
gradually reduce the load as strength increases.  On the
contrary, one starts light and easy, and steps up the challenge
as the muscles grow more powerful.

Similarly, if life is the soul's gym, the newer or weaker souls
surely would not be given the monumental challenge of living with
poverty, disease, and despair.  No, they would be given lives of
ease to begin with; and, if they did good jobs at those, then the
load could be increased with the next go-round.

The preference of reincarnating souls for lives of squalor, which
Edwards noted in his fourth essay, is thus revealed as the
equivalent of top athletes flocking to an advanced workout class.

Logically, it follows that Shirley MacLaine, the rich, famous,
talented, beautiful movie star, must have realy screwed up in her
multitude of previous lives.  Otherwise, she would surely be
suffering a life of misery in the back alleys of Bombay or Beirut
by now, pumping karma until she was fit for Paradise.

Billy Joel, the rich, famous, successful rock star married to
Christie Brinkley, must have a soul that is brand new.  No one
could have made such a mess of previous lives that he would be so
coddled in his re-incarnation.

Ironically, many people may be pursuing lives of kindness,
tolerance, and generosity out of the mistaken notion that they
will be rewarded by coming back as potentates or Club Med
managers.  We can now see that such behavior is likely instead to
earn them tours as crack addicts, the better to build up their
psychic pectorals.

In view of Mr. Edwards's scholarly treatment of the issue, I can
only assume that he omitted mention of this concept because of
concern that some of our more short-sighted citizens might forgo
the path to Glory in favor of temporary material comfort in the
next life.  Such misguided souls would lie, cheat, steal, or
worse in an attempt to be sent to "remedial gym" next time, where
they could sip pinia coladas with Morgan Brittany.

In view of the numbers of people we have performing such
activities already (lying, cheating, etc., I mean, not the
imbibing with Ms. Brittany), it may indeed be best not to offer
an incentive for more miscreants.  However, I believe that we
can trust this journal's readers to be discreet.

In any case, I doubt that a bunch of self-confessed secular
humanists would gain much of an audience among those who would
put such knowledge to perverse ends.

                                Bob Silberg
                                West Hills, Calif.

[end of letter]


This, now most certainly the definitive work on reincarnation,
should have our every ear, and both Mr. Silberg and _Free
Inquiry_ our gratitude for clearing all this business up, once
and for all.  I pray that I have faithfully transcribed the text,
and that I may unmend my ways (as slowly as possible) to,
say...Monaco.  Munich?!  No more mister nice guy!  8^)



--
jim tims
"And if you're a miner, when you're too tired and old and sick and stupid
to do your job properly, you have to go, whereas just the opposite applies
with the judges."  Beyond the Fringe

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From: [e-mail] (Montykins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 09:34:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Lines: 20
Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcc13.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Serious Question Askers: I have not been hit upon by the large bird
>in question. In regards to whether I now anyhone but the unusual the
>answer is "Yes my wife".
>John Winston.

The mind boggles. Then the mind rereads the posting. Then the mind
tells the newsreading software to show the message again. Then the
mind boggles anew.

Question: How many of the mockers are _not_ reading this stuff in
alt.religion.kibology?

And a Serious Question for Mr._-_Winston: WHY are you posting to
alt.religion.kibology in the first place?

 -Paul "Monty" Ashley
   (Boggle bogggle boggle)
--
All just the opinions of [e-mail].
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12862 alt.alien.visitors:11264 sci.skeptic:34594
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From: [e-mail] (Anders Thulin)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dolphin-Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 08:05:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <stone.722110468@cwis>
Organization: Telia Research AB, Teknikringen 2B, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
Lines: 24

In article <stone.722110468@cwis> [e-mail] (Travis Stone) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:

>>Even now, friendly dolphins are being
>>used to help heal mentally handicapped children. I have found these less
>>fortunate kids relate more to the friendly dolphins than humans.
>
>Really?  Interesting.  When did he do this research?  Where?
>Whom did he do it with?  Where did he publish his  findings?

Research on treating autistic children along these lines is done at
Florida State University, unless my memory serves me wrong.

I've seen the names of two therapists, but I can't quite recall them.
One is a pychologist (Nathansson?), the other a professor (Betty
S...?)

This is off the top of my head - the article I read this in is at
home.  If someone's interested, drop me a line, and I'll try to find
more specific info.

--
Anders Thulin       [e-mail]     013-23 55 32
Telia Research AB, Teknikringen 2B, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!sgigate!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Phobos II Incident
Keywords: Phobos II
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 04:43:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 15


    [e-mail] (IAN DAVENPORT) writes:
    Flame me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't the problem with Phobos
    II that the control center accidentally sent the craft a
    "switch off antenna" signal, realising then that the craft
    could not receive any "switch on antenna" signals they might
    send.

...actually, there were two phobos craft, and one was accidently
disabled by its controllers (I don't remember the details offhand, but
it was something like you describe.)  The second craft successfully
(and functioning) made it to Mars, and then whatever happened to it
happened.

Charles
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 06:45:04 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 15

Subject: Big Bird. Part 2.
  As I was saying before my psychic advisor suggested that I not go looking
for this thing alone or at dark. I counldn't  get anyone who would go with
me so I struck out by myself.
  This place turned out to be up a certain canyon on Mission Peak near
Fremont, Calif. It turned out to be that this nest was made out of a large
tree that had been knocked down and then something had trampled down the
large branches of the tree and had placed smaller pieces of branches on top
of that. It finally looked like a nest. Around this nest were a bunch of
bones as if something had been eating things and then throwing the bones out
of the nest. Some of the bones were cattle and then there were also bones of
living creatures that were smaller. It was not apparent whether they were
dog bones or something young about our size.  It was getting dark so I left.
End Part 2.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Boesch)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: professional xenobiologist, PhD, U. of Southeast Idaho, 1974
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 16:34:03 GMT
Lines: 30

[e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Big Bird. Part 2.
>  As I was saying before my psychic advisor suggested that I not go looking
>for this thing alone or at dark. I counldn't  get anyone who would go with
>me so I struck out by myself.
[...]
>It was getting dark so I left.

I didn't always live in the city, you know, and I've seen this all
before.  Back in the summer of 1957, it was.  A new family had moved
into town.  They had two small children, a boy and a girl.  The mother
was a school nurse and the father was a wildlife photographer.

The father went exploring and found what he first thought was a burial
ground.  The old-timers told him to stay away, but he wouldn't do it.
That man was my father --

Oh, sorry, I was getting carried away.

Hi, I'm Eric.  I'll be replacing you as the main character after you
are eaten.

Your psychic advisor doesn't stand a chance either.  Psychic advisors
are new-fangled, and this thing is ... old.  You'd better get that sex
scene over with quick; you don't have much time.  In case you don't
remember, your psychic advisor is a stunning female, 28, with long
brown hair, and you are going to make Seventies Luv with her.

Keep up the good work, and remember to narrate your dying breath,
Eric "I have spent my whole life learning how this monster thinks" Boesch
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!unidui!rrz.uni-koeln.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: underground facilities
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 06:43:19 PST
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 17

I've been reading that there would be a number of underground facilities
for use by aliens in Arizona and New Mexico. Notably these facilities
would have been contructed underneath Native American Reservations. Is
there anyone out there who happens to know which reservations? Also I
would be interested to see if some of you, living in Arizona and New
Mexico, who have more information on this.

The thing sounds pretty wild to me, but I commited myself to an open mind
and a 'bann' on the word impossible.

Peter-

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 15:29:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 31

Subject: Wolf 359.
  In checking out the other planets and the people you will find that most of
them are ahead of us in their developement. The people from Venus are 5,000
years ahead of us and in the 4th dimension.  They are ahead of us because we
wipe ourselves  out every so often and start over again.
  There is one planet behind us and I'll now tell you what the space people
have to say about it.
  Now, as we rise slowly above this planet's circle and again gaze out into
the depths of utter darkness, we shall pick another place of interest. your
music proclaims a somewhat  martial air, so let us take a look at those who
enjoy themselves in the practice of military tactics.  Does this sound
strange, my brothers and sisters? Well, knowing of evolution, it should not
be so.  We approach now one known to your astronomers as a little planet,
and a very dim one.  We shall go now to one known as Wolf 359 and here we
find the pagentry and color, the way of life prevalent upon your planet
during what you called your Middle Ages.  For here, my brothers, we find a
planet whose scale of evolution is no higher than this. One, who is actually
behind you (behind the earth in evolution).
  We look down from our heights carefully so we won't attract their attention,
and we look as we surround our craft with a heavy fog to simulate their
cloud formations.  We see castles and indeed, an evolution similar to that
which transpired upon your planet in early days. Gallants mounted upon
horses carrying their lances and going forth to meet perhaps, a dragon.  A
feudalistic world--one knowing naught but the power of might.  Indeed, one
which has yet much to learn. Yet, my brothers and sisters, how can we from
loftier heights not look upon this budding one and realize, that all who
have evolved have experieced similar moments?  MAN's striving attempts again
to ever reach upwards and outwards towards that goal which he knows exists
in infinity.
Source of Information, Star Wards by Richard Miller, page 55.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Invisible Baby
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 08:03:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 27

Subject: Invisible Baby.
 Well folks, we have had invisible fish, and invisible space people so here we
go with an invisible baby.  It seems that a 26 year old woman has given
birth to a baby who can disappear at will and crawl through walls!
 "We're obviously dealing  with a ghost",  said Dr. Margery Brandt, the
child's pediatrician, told reporters in Amsterdam, Holland.
  The little girl vanishes and reappears when you hold her. She can float in
midair.
 We've even seen her crawl through a wall.
  Paranormal researcher Benno Colson thinks the child is one of a handful of
spirit entities brought into the material world by mistake.
 A key question now is whether the girl will retain her spirit powers or lose
them as she grows older.
 I am aware of five other cases of supernatural birth. In each instance, they
lost their abilities or disappeared altogether.
 It's almost as if they had some sort of self-limiting mechanism to compentate
for the fact that they were born into the wrong world.
 "There is no telling what we might be able to learn from them," said Dr.
Brandt. "I just hope it's all good."
  This is me (John Winston) speaking. There you have it folks.  I have a
friend who told me the story about the magic hoes who is now going to send a
copy of the book that deals with the subject over to a person who has been
elected as the president of a country in Africa. He thinks this president is
interested in these subjects, especially the ability of a person to back
into a wall and es
cape.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Whitely Strieber
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 01:29:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 11

To: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]

    I read a letter from Whitley Strieber (author of "Communion" and
    "Transformation") a while back mentioning that he was fed-up with
    the entire UFO community. Can anyone please explain (or post) the
    details of what happened?

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Do Firemen enjoy BBQ meat?

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 1800 Encounter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 01:38:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 54

To: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Topic: Air Force Letter 200-2

          Air Force Letter 200-2 (Regulation) USA
               by Joseph Daniels aka UFO JOE

After  a couple months of the Robertson Panel Meeting in  January
1953  Air  Force Regulation 200-2 went into effect.  It  mandated
that:

     "the percentage of unidentified (UFOs) must be reduced to  a
     minimum."

This meant that explanations had to be found one way or  another.
In other words the Air Force was forcing it's personnel to debunk
and  explain  away  UFOs. 200-2 was  complemented  by  Regulation
JANAP-146,  making  the  release of  information  about  UFOs  by
military personnel a crime punishable by a fine of $10,000 and 10
years  of imprisonment. Most citizens do not realize that  it  is
illegal for military personnel to discuss UFOs.


                        JANAP Directives

Concern over military personnel releasing details of UFOs came to
a   head  with  the  publication  of  a  report  by   the   Joint
Army/Navy/Air  Force  Publication (JANAP).  The  JANAP  Directive
states that anyone discussing UFO sightings with the media or the
public  was liable to 10 years imprisonment and/or $10,000  fine.
These directives came into force in February 1954.

One   Directive  JANAP-146  relates  to   CIRVIS   (Communication
Instructions  for  Reporting Vital  Intelligence  Sightings).  It
states:

     "All persons aware of the contents of the service report are
     governed  by the Communications Act of 1934  and  amendments
     thereto,   and  espionage  laws.  CIRVIS   reports   contain
     information  affecting  the national defense of  the  United
     States within the meanings of the espionage laws, 18 US Code
     793  and 794. The authorized transmission or  revelation  of
     the contents of CIRVIS reports in any manner is prohibited."

These  law clearly prevent most sightings from being reported  to
the  public.  Those  that do are  quickly  "debunked"  by  quasi-
scientific  explanations  that the general public are  more  than
willing to accept.

                                                 - Joseph Daniels

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Can I put you on hold?...<click> Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12872 alt.alien.visitors:11273 alt.religion.kibology:4815
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!cunews!revcan!geovision!news
From: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 18:44:23 GMT
Lines: 19

[e-mail] writes:

>  This place turned out to be up a certain canyon on Mission Peak near
>Fremont, Calif. It turned out to be that this nest was made out of a large
>tree that had been knocked down and then something had trampled down the
>large branches of the tree and had placed smaller pieces of branches on top

Isn't amazing how these new-age kooks never have cameras with them when they
go looking for something like this.  Or if they do, the pictures were
``stolen by the US Airforce Project Bluebook'' or some such hokey.

To quote from the book "Mountain Bike", by William Nealy:
``If you find yourself among a buch of New Age kooks, a skull cap hastily
constructed from aluminium foil will give the rider some protection from
geek-wave radiation!''

--
Paul Tomblin, News Administrator Extraordinaire.  ([e-mail])
I just administer the news, I don't make or state policy.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12874 alt.alien.visitors:11274 sci.skeptic:34607
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 15:38:31 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 65

Subject: Aliens in Our Sky.
  I will now put down a list of some of the aliens that are seen in UFOs in
our sky.
1. Grey Type A. Also known as Zeta Reticuli from the Zeta Reticulan star
system (The Bernard Star) neighboring the Orion area.
2. Greysof the hawkish, abrupt, crude and blunt temperment.
3. The  master race of reptilian=type aliens. They boss the greys around.
4. Tall greys from Orion. Usually about 7 to 8 ft. tall. They have large
noses.  These grey are less viscous towards humans than the smaller greys
but are still considered hostile.
5. Grey type C. These are the shortest of the greys and tend to be about 3.5
ft. tall.  They are just as hostile to humans as the Zetas. They are from a
star system near the shoulder of Orion called Bellatrax.
6.  Human type A. These are of a genetic base similar to humans of earth.
They appear of normal height (5 to 6 ft. ) and tend to be fair-skinned with
blonde hair.  These entities have been abducted by the greys or are the
offspring of abductees and have been trained by the greys as servants.
These entities are totally subservient to the greys.
7. Human type B. These are aliens of similar genetics to earth humans. These
are from the Pleiades and are also of the blond, fair skinned appearance.
This type is of a genuine highly spiritual, benevolent variety and have a
kinship toward humans and are the only aliens to be truly trusted by earth
human at this time (except the other good guys). They had at one time
offered to be of assistance to earth leaders in dealing with the alien
situation here but were rebuffed and so have taken a kind of hands off
approach for the time being. These aliens are supposedly the forefather of
our  race of humankind.
8.  Human Type C. Beings from Sirius who are benevolent to earth people.
9. Good guys from Vega
10. "    "    "   Arcturas.
11.  Mt. Shasta - the Silver Fleet, Lemurian.
12.   "    "    another Fleet I can't remember the name. Some of these people
are formerly from Atlantis.
13. People from inside our Earth.
14.  Jupiter - the Adamic Race.
15.  Venus, about 5 races and colors. (nord or nordic people because they are
blonde and look like Swedish people).
16. Venus
17.  "
18.  "
19.  "
20. Mars (the forefathers of the Chinese race on Earth).
21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
22. The Five Galaxy Cross from Legart and about 2 other planets in that system
that contain a total of 9 billion people. They are about 17 light years
away. Jarton is a person from there.
23.  Five Galaxy Cross.
24.   "     "      "
25, Shamballa.
26. Rainbow City at the South Pole.
27. The Seven Cities of Shan.
28. Crystal City- in orbit around the Earth-300 miles square.
29. The New Jerusaleum - 1500 miles square.
30. The other side of the Moon.
31. Satonians.
32. Wormwood- should be coming around soon.
33. Ashtar Command-many places many people, mostly of the 4th and higher
dimensions.
34. A planetoid of the Meteorite Belt. What is left of Maldek after it blew up.
35. Clarion.
37.  Satilites of some of our large planets.
38.  Trandor-headquarters of the Solar Cross organization.
There are over 100 places that people are coming from to observe Earth.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!usage!syacus!steven
From: [e-mail] (Steven Malikoff)
Subject: Re: JW
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:49:09 GMT
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (fis) writes:
: I suggest we have a whip round so that we can hire someone to pay a visit
: to Mr J Winston.
: On their arrival their duty would be to shove the largest object in the
: vicinity down his THROAT!
: JOHN - YOU'RE DOING OUR HEADS IN, AND WE WISH YOU WERE DEAD.
: [e-mail]

Well said.
I never thought that a kill file would be so necessary, and have tolerated
many different opinions on the net. However, the stupid postings of JW
have incensed me to the point that the first (and only) pattern in my kill
file has become *_-_*.  Now, if only I could filter the threads that include
his postings, too.

Steve Malikoff.
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12875 alt.alien.visitors:11276 sci.skeptic:34612
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 08:11:34 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 26

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear Deep Thinkers: Here  it is friday and we're still talking and
> have not killed one another yet, so that is a step in the right
> direction. Do you realize how many people have been killed in the
> past just because they brought up the subjects we are talking about.
> Free speech is a great gift.
> John Winston.

Well I think you are right, indeed a great number of people have been
murdered for transcending the boundries of that what is considered to be
normal, corresponding to majority opinion. Freedom of speech, yes that's
a great thing, however I'masking myself how much did actually change?
Let's face it, in our enlightened times, a person who deviates from the
norm is to be considered disturbed and fit for treatment. How many good
and honest people are unwilling to talk about experiences because of a
justified fear to be ridiculed and the very real possibility finding
themselves out of a job.

Greetings Peter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12876 alt.alien.visitors:11277 sci.skeptic:34613
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Keywords: Reality / Truth
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 08:25:47 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 18

> ACIM says ALL material is illusion!
I think that the notion that that what is manifest in the explicate order
is essentially illusionary, is a very valid one. The cause of this
illusion finds its origin in the way the biological brain percieves its
surroundings. The interpretation of external stimuli is to be understood
as a process matching these stimuli whitin the context of a premeditated
world model. We all know that a model is an abstaction of that what is
actual. It is than justified to say that the model is but an approximation
of actuallity and therefor illusionary. It allows us to maintain
ourselves within our every day environment but it most certainly does not
provide us with a means to give a conclusive answer to what is actual and
what is not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I know why thier here!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 05:17:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group
Lines: 5

I think we should include this section in every alt.alien.visitors
post from now on.  But I think we should put it at the TOP!!!

    Jason
    The Dsylexia Si Your Freind Foundtaion
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 05:22:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John F Nielsen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Opera_Ghost) writes:
>
>I cannot disprove that a purple red wood with candy canes for leaves
>exists in Australia. However, that does not make it unreasonable
>to say that it does not exist. Without any proof an alien is in
>the same catagory as the purple redwood.
>
>john

PURPLE CANY-CANE REDWOODS are the secret 8TH signs of the APOCALYPSE
that will come from the planet XTHLU in the constellation MICROSCOPII,
as predicted by the great NOSTRADAMUS and confirmed by BUZZ ALDRIN'S
communication with the GREYS in 1969!!!!!!!!  I have PROOF I have
READ it in a BOOK written by INSIDE SOURCES who dare not reveal their
REAL NAMES because of the "MIBS" who are actually supercomplex ROBOTS
serving their HIDEOUS MASTERS' DARK BIDDING on EARTH!!!!!!!!

    Jason
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12877 alt.alien.visitors:11280
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!cs.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!hardy.u.washington.edu!pul
From: [e-mail] (Arbaline)
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington
References: <[e-mail]> <roelle.721939012@uars_mag> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 06:42:13 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Well, ya know, what I can't figure is that if these guys in the flying
>saucers are so smart, why haven't they figured out how to do e-mail
>yet and got linked to the internet?
>uuisis!testsys!doug

They have!

You can do a lot as an ET is you are willing to enter a human body (be
a Walk-in) or incarnate in a human family from birth (be what they
call a Crawl-in). Most ET's choose to help us from spiritual planes or
stay in their ships, but there are a few bold, excitement craving ones
who like to get down and dirty and live among us in human bodies.
Many New-agers or Star-people are in this category. Most know who they
are but a few don't yet. Living in the dense, evolving aura of Earth
can make one temporarily forget their cosmic origins, if they weren't
already an ET Master when they came to Earth. Now, the Galactic
Confederation doesn't land or show their ships openly to the masses
because we of Earth are not collectively ready for it, and they are
not allowed to interfere. However, since the ET's in human form fall
under Earth's karmic law, they are allowed to openly spread their
wisdom, sometimes admitting their origin causing others to think they
are weird, and other times being more subtle. Of course, remember that
many of we of Earth have lots of wisdom too and most of the ETs here
are still learning themselves, too. At least that's the way I see it.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail].      |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "If you seek to be one of the Chosen, simply choose yourself!" - Solara   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!ersys!wowee!kellym
From: [e-mail] (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:10:55 MST
Distribution: world
Organization: Not an Organization
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> Stephen Kuhn <[e-mail]> writes:
> From: Rob Farquhar, temp. using this account.
[...]
> I won't tell you which of these has life around it, that would be cheating.
> But I know.  You see, I was "picked up" for the first time several years ago, a
> nd taken to a small world one-eighth of the way around the galaxy. It is inhabi
> ted by the Darvosians, the "little grey men" of myth and legend.  They are non-
> hostile, and very interested in the development of other species. They were mos
> t cooperative and instructing (by the way, faster-than-light travel makes human
> s nauseous).  They informed me of the existence of the twelve starfaring races
> of the galaxy (those species which have developed ftl travel. They include:

I have always been interested in the idea that some race of aliens are
truly devoted to the development of other species.  Can you elaborate on
that quite a bit?  Couldn't they help the human race along (albeit, very
slowly I'd expect) to a higher level of consciousness?

Just to imagine being taken away to a foreign world is fascinating. I've
never claimed anything of the sort, but somehow I really wish I could.
What is the purpose of taking you and then bringing you back, memory
intact?

I would have said, "I'd give my left nut to experience something like
that!" but I'm afraid someone might take me up on it. I wanted to post
this in email, but apparently you were using someone else's account.

--
%"Vhuuut, you donna' like'a my zooop?"-Fred Flintstone, impersonating a chef
% kellY Martin  UUCP:[e-mail]  (1:342/53.5@fidonet)

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11282 alt.butt.harp:318 alt.religion.kibology:4828
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!sot-ecs!lm89
From: [e-mail] (McIlhoney L)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.butt.harp,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Daft Stuff (was something about spacecraft in bed)
Keywords: duh
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:07:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 29
Nntp-Posting-Host: herbert

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard Alan Brown) writes:

>Whenever I feel a little jaded (like now, when I've spent the day marking
>first year exam papers.. <sob>) I wander over to sci.skeptic, and there he
>is, blathering about out of body experiences, and his world famous
>astral-train. That man was born with an intellectual kick-me sign tatooed
>to his forehead. He should post to alt.peeves, and see how long his new-age
>jabbering lasts. Those people in sci.skeptic are mighty polite to him (why
>*is* that), but there's one thing you can say for him, he's reliable.

Hmm, I know the sort of thing you mean.  Do you reckon he writes the
lyrics for the B52s?  As in ...

        "On a bus
        To another place,
        To the UFO and to outer space baby

        Is that you Bo Dean?
        It's me Bo Dean!
        The inter-dimensional
        Outer space
        Beam."

Sorry, it's Monday morning and the weather in Southampton is crap,
so you'll have to forgive me for this utter *@#$.
--
Lawrence McIlhoney Esq., Department of Electronics
University of Southampton, United Kingdom           "Vegetable Rights
E-mail [e-mail]                             and Peace!"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!ccdarg
From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:09:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mutter Christoph Johannes) writes:
> This is only a test? Nevermind (NIRVANA).

Surely Lithium (Nirvana)
;-)

--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!ccdarg
From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JW
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:21:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (fis) writes:
> I suggest we have a whip round so that we can hire someone to pay a visit
> to Mr J Winston.
>
> On their arrival their duty would be to shove the largest object in the
> vicinity down his THROAT!
>
> JOHN - YOU'RE DOING OUR HEADS IN, AND WE WISH YOU WERE DEAD.
>
> [e-mail]

It should be pointed out here as a public service announcement that
'fis' is a prick of astounding proportions and I'm not given to
hyperbole.

For those who have been fortunate enough to avoid him so far his
normal topics of discussion include his hero worship of Adolph Hitler,
Satan and unmitigated hatred for anyone and everyone else. Sexual
fantasys concerning chickens tend to rate highly on his agenda as well.

Sometimes known as njones (Neil Jones) which might actually be his
real name...

--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12879 alt.alien.visitors:11285 sci.skeptic:34622
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis!stone
From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Invisible Baby
Message-ID: <stone.722528436@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:20:36 GMT
Lines: 8



Tell me something, John-O:

How often do you oil that spring attached to the cuckoo
that pops out of your forehead?


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12880 alt.alien.visitors:11286 sci.skeptic:34625
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:19:48 GMT
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
: >Sorry, there have been plenty of double-blind tests whose protocols were
: >approved by astrologers in advance.  The results were ALL negative.
:
: Could you please give references, if possible?  I think this belongs in the
: FAQ...
:

I'll work on digging up some references.  If anybody out there has any
references handy, e-mail them to me, and I'll compile them.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  You can't hurt me!!  I
Rosemount Inc.                                |have an ASSUMABLE MORTGAGE!!
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
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EC writes in part:
| There are lots of books and articles dealing with past-life research.  I refer
| you to Ian Stevenson's "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" and "The
| Search for Bridey Murphy" which was written (if memory serves) by a Boston
| psychologist who originally set out to debunk the theory, and became a believer.
| --
| Ed Carp
|
| Have you ever done any *real* research, or are you just talking through
| your hat?  Ever read J. B. Rhine's studies on the Bridey Murphy case?
| Ever read Ian Stevenson's stuff?  If you haven't done any real research
| into the field, I respectfully submit that your opinion is nothing more
| than that - opinion, and a misinformed one, at that.
| --
| Ed Carp
As other folks have already pointed out, Ian Stevenson's stuff and
the Bridey Murphy case are VERY well known.  Have YOU ever done any
*real* research and read ANY psychology textbook on hypnosis?  It
doesn't look like it.

Anyway, your call for rational examination of evidence is well taken,
but becomes rather diluted by your later postings, such as:
|
| Unless backed up by a sizeable body of evidence.  If I say that I have been
| to location X, and seen Y, and ten people also go to location X and agree
| that they see Y, I'd think that's pretty convincing evidence that what we
| have here is a factual record.
| --
| Ed Carp
If you are claiming this has been done, then cite the record.  So
far as I know, even this trivial level of confirmation hasn't been
established for most cases.  This is due to the undeniable fact that,
in most cases, "each subject who has undertaken this regression *knows*
that the images they are seeing or remembering are _NOT_ produced due
to a vivid imagination - they are memories."(quoting Mark Aggar)  This
belief is, of course, a "cognitive illusion", as it is well established
that one's estimate of the accuracy of a recollection is uncorrelated
with the actual accuracy of the memory.   Again, read something about
psychology  (something written in the last 20 years, that is).

|
| James J. Lippard ([e-mail]) wrote:
|
| : Regression subjects do not *know* that their recollections are not
| : produced due to vivid imagination, confabulation, or cryptomnesia.
| : Further, many subjects who believe that this is the case have had their
| : recollections investigated and the sources have been found to be novels,
| : stories told to them as children, and so forth (e.g., Bridey Murphy).
|
| Bridey Murphy was *not* out of a novel or a story told to them when
| they were a child.  That hypothesis was pure speculation.
| --
| Ed Carp
...which shows that you haven't done your homework.  You really shouldn't
hang your hat on the BM case, as it is very well known to be a classic
case of forgotten childhood memories being recalled as previous lives.
(I wouldn't recommend hanging your hat on ANY of Rhine's cases, as
most have been discarded or debunked long ago.  This is no reflection
on the character of the Rhines, as they were nice people.  Their data
is simply out of date.)

I support your call for doing some reasearch on this topic before
dismissing it out of hand.  Perahps you will take your own advice
and examine the well known criticisms of the cases you cite as
evidence, and examine what psychologists have learned about memory
and hypnosis.  You may not be aware of the research that underlies
the terms that JJL used ("imagination, confabulation, or cryptomnesia"),
but there is some pretty gosh-durned interesting science about these
things that has been done in the past 25 years.  Check it out.


  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: FAQ Frequency.
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:49:00 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Considering the size of the FAQ, would it be better to post
it once a month instead of every two weeks ?
Any additions or amendments could be posted to the net on
their own when they're written and the full FAQ, integrating
those amendments, could be published when the next full-posting
was due.
Most newsgroups that have a FAQ publish it on the first day
of each month.
If there was an ftp site willing to carry it then it
would eliminate having to post it network-wide every time
someone asks "Is there a FAQ ?"
(Phoenix.oulu.fi perhaps ?)

-Sean.
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From: [e-mail] (Lawrence C Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:01:10 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Aliens in Our Sky.
>  I will now put down a list of some of the aliens that are seen in UFOs in
>our sky.

This stuff belongs in rec.arts.sf.misc, John.

>...kinship toward humans and are the only aliens to be truly trusted by earth
>human at this time (except the other good guys).

That's good to know, especially that we should trust the other good guys, too.

>10. "    "    "   Arcturas.

Not Arcturus, huh?

>11.  Mt. Shasta - the Silver Fleet, Lemurian.

I've always loved lemurs, their fur looks sooo soft...

>12.   "    "    another Fleet I can't remember the name. Some of these people
>are formerly from Atlantis.

Really?  Is there anyone _currently_ from Atlantis?

>13. People from inside our Earth.

From Pellucidar, no doubt.  _Lovely_ place to visit astrally, have you tried
it, John?  Spent a couple years there one weekend...

>14.  Jupiter - the Adamic Race.

Good swimmers, that Adamic Race.  They don't mind the cold or the lack of
oxygen, either.

>15.  Venus, about 5 races and colors. (nord or nordic people because they are
>blonde and look like Swedish people).

That's funny, with a surface temperature of around 800 degrees, I'd expect
they'd all be black - burned black.

>20. Mars (the forefathers of the Chinese race on Earth).

No, the forerunners of the Chinese came from the Moon, and it's pronounced
"Ma Gong".  And Earth is "Du Gong".  This was all explained by Otis Adelbert
Kline.

>21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
>of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.

Not Aldebaran?

>26. Rainbow City at the South Pole.

Never observed by any antarctic expedition, I take it.

>28. Crystal City- in orbit around the Earth-300 miles square.

Not that anyone noticed it.  Must be invisible?  Yes, that's the ticket!
Yeah...it's..._cloaked_ - like a Klingon!

>30. The other side of the Moon.

Now _there's_ a clever and inventive place to have aliens come from.  Someone
should write a movie script about it!  "Let's see, Plan 8 didn't work, so what
shall we try next?"

>31. Satonians.

But not the Satinians, who can't be coaxed out of bed...

>32. Wormwood- should be coming around soon.

I've been expecting them any day...

>34. A planetoid of the Meteorite Belt. What is left of Maldek after it blew up.

Funny, the astronomers that still hold with that theory call it "Marduk".

>35. Clarion.

The software company?!

>38.  Trandor-headquarters of the Solar Cross organization.

It's "Trantor", and it's the capital of the _whole_galaxy_.  Criminy, John,
if you're going to plagerize Asimov, at least do it right.

>There are over 100 places that people are coming from to observe Earth.

Christ, the galaxy must be _boring_.

Larry Smith ([e-mail])  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want,
it is the freedom to do whatever we are able.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 08:02:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear People: I might add that Mr. Miller is a person who took a
ride on a flat bottomed flying saucer in the past. He put down
a lot of information by ESP (except he called it tensor beam) and
put this in a book called Star Wards. He and his group got so
much trouble from certain people that the Solar Cross Group (which
consists of his friends and others) choose not to deal with the
subject of UFOs any more very much. They are a very good group and
I know some of their people in San Jose, Calif.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 08:18:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear People: Can anyone enlighten me on the proper spelling of the
word Forengi, the type of people who are shown on Star Trek the Next
Generation who are traders. For some reason or another when I hear the
comment from the Kiboites I think of these type people.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 07:50:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Humans: Boy that comment of Walter D. P. was so good he should
go out and etch it on a rock so future generations would know that
one person had his head screwed on right during our generation. To answer
the question about how the space people use the word abort, they mainly
use it the same way we do and use it to show when you stop a missile
firing.  I'm glad someone put the information down about order 200-2.
We're getting some good comments. Keep it up.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 08:09:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Aura Watchers: I believe you will find this earth is going to
last for quite a while and have an aura. If it should blow up it
will go to pieces and come back together as a part of some other
planet or sun. Nothing dies as far as I have been told.
John Winston.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 08:15:52 PST
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I find it absolutely amazing how several someones can negate and deny their
spirituality by saying reincarnation does not exist and be proud of it!  I
thought all the Nazis had reincarnated into Scientology,  but I guess it
does make since some would come back as alleged scientests.  Since
reincarnation has been a natural law,  long,  long before science.  It is
up to Science to prove it does not exist.  I have been assisting folks to
remember their other lives for over twenty years.  I use biofeedback and
,excuse the unscientific term, love. I used to do skeptics but no matter
how many past lives they would remember they always negated their own
experience afterwards so basically I found it a waste of time to deal with
them.  No one but you is going to hold you accountable for what you have
done in your other lives,  so do not worry they will not put you on trial.
Go ahead notice your other lives,  that is where your richness and depth
is.  To me the only purpose of science is to affirm and exploit our
connection to creation.

Don Showen
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:39:31 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> I find it absolutely amazing how several someones can negate and deny their
> spirituality by saying reincarnation does not exist and be proud of it!  I
> thought all the Nazis had reincarnated into Scientology,  but I guess it
> does make since some would come back as alleged scientests.


As a scientist and a skeptic, I take this as a personal insult.
Although I wasn't involved in the discussion so far, NOTHING has been said
that could relate any of the speakers to Nazis. Please precise your
accusations, or fuck the hell off.

>Since
> reincarnation has been a natural law,  long,  long before science.  It is
> up to Science to prove it does not exist.

Here we go again. Could you please wake up for a minute (I know reality is
harsh, but facing it once in a while is an healthy exercise).
YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR CLAIMS, SCIENCE (whatever the entity could be -
I prefer to refer to scientists) DOESN'T HAVE TO ( and for that matter cannot)
DISPROVE THEM.

 I have been assisting folks to
> remember their other lives for over twenty years.  I use biofeedback and
> ,excuse the unscientific term, love. I used to do skeptics but no matter
> how many past lives they would remember they always negated their own
> experience afterwards so basically I found it a waste of time to deal with
> them.  No one but you is going to hold you accountable for what you have
> done in your other lives,  so do not worry they will not put you on trial.
> Go ahead notice your other lives,  that is where your richness and depth
> is.  To me the only purpose of science is to affirm and exploit our
> connection to creation.


Aside from the typical New Age crap you're so found of, could you please
substanciate ONE of the "past lives experiences" you've witnessed ?
Other than some vague recollection of events ?

No you can't, and that's all this whole thing is about. On the contrary,
numerous studies have shown that some "past lives memories" are nothing
but childhood recollections, or pieces of imagination. This doesn't disprove
your hypothesis, it simply warns us to be careful before jumping into
the twilight zone.

>
> Don Showen


JM.
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From: [e-mail] (sorgatz)
Subject: Re: Tea.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Deep Thinkers: How about all of you people coming over to my
>house 100,000 years from now. We'll laugh about all of this and
>drink some bubble up and eat some rainbow stew?
>John Winston.

 THAT'S IT! NOW I KNOW WHO YOU ARE! "John Winston"...HA!  "Rainbow stew"??
..don't you mean venison chili?!! Ok Ok...in case the rest of you haven't
yet caught on...he's actually KEN KESEY!! NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE...sure!

Never trust a Prankster...

..hey Ken, pass that IT-290 would ya?


-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])                       *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:20:41 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> I find it absolutely amazing how several someones can negate and deny their
|> spirituality by saying reincarnation does not exist and be proud of it!

Better get used to it, son.

|> I
|> thought all the Nazis had reincarnated into Scientology,  but I guess it
|> does make since some would come back as alleged scientests.

I seem to recall that it the Nazi's were awfully fond of reincarnation
theory, along with a lot of other bogus ideas.  Please discard your
own "nazi"-ism before insulting others with that label.

|> Since
|> reincarnation has been a natural law,  long,  long before science.

I guess I must have moved out of the jurisdiction of this law!  Please
do not attempt to impose your personal religious beliefs on me in the
guise of "natural law" or anything else.  (I note that "natural law" is
another concept favored by radical rightists.  Just who was it that
was supposed to be nazi-like?)

|> It is
|> up to Science to prove it does not exist.

Science has "proved" that.  You just don't understand the "proof".  Try
to get outside your own preconceptions.

|> I have been assisting folks to
|> remember their other lives for over twenty years.  I use biofeedback and
|> ,excuse the unscientific term, love. I used to do skeptics but no matter
|> how many past lives they would remember they always negated their own
|> experience afterwards so basically I found it a waste of time to deal with
|> them.  No one but you is going to hold you accountable for what you have
|> done in your other lives,  so do not worry they will not put you on trial.
|> Go ahead notice your other lives,  that is where your richness and depth
|> is.  To me the only purpose of science is to affirm and exploit our
|> connection to creation.

Science has many purposes, including the revelation of the beauty and
complexity of nature.  Many feel that THIS is where the richness and
depth of life lies, rather than in embracing discredited superstitions,
no matter how attractive.

I sorry that you are upset by the fact that some people think that
reincarnation is a theory with no factual basis.  I'm sure noone
who holds this opinion bears you any personal ill will.  I wish
you would have the grace to tolerate people who do not share your
religion.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <stone.721943773@cwis> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:10:03 GMT
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     The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
     child-eating varmints!

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Clari news bulletin
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:21:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andrew Todd Weinstein) writes:
>I got this newsclip from yesterday on clari.news.headlines
>
>
>[ The F-B-I is looking into allegations the national security was put
>at grave risk because of lax security at a NASA research center in
>Mountain View, California. An internal review suggests the facility was
>left open to spies.]
>
>Does this have anything to do with ufo info and the govt. coverup of it,
>or does this involve something else, any opinions??

The San Jose Mercury News did report that the FBI was afraid
of........ "hostile intelligence forces."

So let's revu this logically.

1) Of all nucler powers USA has chosen USSR (now Russia again)
as the single threat to USA freedom

2) Iron Curtain is eliminated

3) Is it Lockheed or McDonnel-Douglas that has an aerospace
research facility built just outside Moscow?

So I ask you here (are you listening
MJ12,CIA,FBI,NASA,Bush)....just what ARE these "hostile
intelligence forces"?????? hmmmmmm????????

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I know why thier here!
Keywords: The Sky is Falling
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:30:40 GMT
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Obfuscated fertilizer deleted...

>                                 Thank you,
>                                  Hitman
>
>
>P.S. All writing above this line utter bullshit. Get a life. Aliens are not
>comming to get us. You idiots are starting to sound crazy. None of you have
>ever met an alien and never will. Go out, see  movie, have some sex geeks.

hmmmmmm....sounds like ve have a classic case of paranoid
denial complicated mit de schitzophrenic transferrance of
obsessive-compulsive anal-retentive behavior.

hmmmm...I suggest zat you sign ze papers undt go for ze ride in
ze ufo.

Zick-Mund            ;^)


--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!morale
From: [e-mail] (Enrique Morales)
Subject: Re: Moon sightings
Message-ID: <b![e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: jec303.its.rpi.edu
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:40:02 GMT
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[e-mail] (Magnus Alvestad) writes:

>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:32:14 GMT, [e-mail]
>>>>>> (Cpl.Flash ) said:

>    Flash> looking at alien craft at the top of a crater?      I
>    Flash> think armstrong said something like "..my god there's
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>    Flash> hundreds     of them". I'm not to sure because as i
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>No, no; he said 'Oh my god - it's full of stars!' - of course this was
>cencored by the CIA. Dr Asimov, however, who was at that time involved
                      ^^^^^^^^^

>in a number of Top Secret projects, including the Philadelphia
>project, later used it in his book '2001'. It's all there.

>-Magnus

Gosh!!! Where do you people get your info from???
First you reach silly conclusion fron a bad quote,
then to top it off you attrubute the quote to the wrong
author. Dr Asimov, may he rest in peace, did not write that.
Arthur C. Clarke did in _his_ 2001:A Space Oddissey.

You can't connect a simple book with its author.
How are you going to prove/disprove the existence of aliens???
Sheeezzzz.....


Enrique
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From: [e-mail] (C Squared)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:28:21 GMT
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Originator: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: Can anyone enlighten me on the proper spelling of the
>word Forengi, the type of people who are shown on Star Trek the Next
>Generation who are traders. For some reason or another when I hear the
>comment from the Kiboites I think of these type people.
>John Winston.

That would be Forengif.

C Squared                    |                Whatf dof If knowf?
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From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:04:59 GMT
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[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>     The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
>     child-eating varmints!

Not only that, but they smell bad, too.
--

Anson Kennedy                                                  [e-mail]
Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)

"If you don't watch the violence,   \           "If I had been the Virgin Mary,
you'll never get desensitized to it." \                I would have said 'No.'"
-Bart Simpson                           \  -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:41:10 GMT
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John,

I realize that you're getting flamed by what seems to be a vast
majority of people posting to this BBS.  I do not intend to do
the same, although I _do_ think that some of your postings are
irrelevant to the subject of a.a.v.  If you would be so kind, would
you mind posting answers to any or all of the following questions:

1.  Where do you get your information?

2.  How do you think things like "invisible fish" relate to the subject
    of U.F.O.'s?

3.  What kind of a job do you have where you have _time_ all day to copy
    all this information to post?

Please realize that this is not intended to make fun of you.  These are
questions that I truly wonder about, and I'm sure I can't be the only one.

Thank you,
Barb
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.fan.lemurs
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:07:54 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy) writes:
>[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>
>>     The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
>-Bart Simpson                           \  -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
And they eat lemurs for BRUNCH on every WEDNESDAY which is a SACRED
DAY for them.
    Jason
"Frank, bring me a ball-peen hammer and your skull."
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
Date: 23 Nov 1992 14:51 MST
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>EC writes in part:
>| There are lots of books and articles dealing with past-life research.  I refer
>| you to Ian Stevenson's "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" and "The
>| Search for Bridey Murphy" which was written (if memory serves) by a Boston
>| psychologist who originally set out to debunk the theory, and became a believer.
>| --
>| Ed Carp
>|
>| Have you ever done any *real* research, or are you just talking through
>| your hat?  Ever read J. B. Rhine's studies on the Bridey Murphy case?
>| Ever read Ian Stevenson's stuff?  If you haven't done any real research
>| into the field, I respectfully submit that your opinion is nothing more
>| than that - opinion, and a misinformed one, at that.
>| --
>| Ed Carp
>As other folks have already pointed out, Ian Stevenson's stuff and
>the Bridey Murphy case are VERY well known.  Have YOU ever done any
>*real* research and read ANY psychology textbook on hypnosis?  It
>doesn't look like it.

I'm glad you posted this followup.  I thought I remembered Carp making
the above statement about the author of _The Search for Bridey Murphy_, but
couldn't find it at the time I posted my criticisms of another Carp
message.  His memory does not serve him correctly; the author of
_The Search for Bridey Murphy_ was a Pueblo, Colorado businessman and
amateur hypnotist, not by a Boston psychologist.  Perhaps he meant to
refer to Dr. Milton V. Kline's anthology of papers, _A Scientific
Report on "The Search for Bridey Murphy"_ (1956), but I believe that
anthology is skeptical.  (I could be wrong--Kline is the hypnosis researcher
who claimed to the CIA that he could create a "Manchurian candidate"
assassin for them, but all attempts to do so were a complete failure.
This is discussed in Gordon Thomas's 1989 book, _Journey into Madness:
The True Story of Secret CIA Mind Control and Medical Abuse_.)

Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
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From: [e-mail] (Ulrich Gall)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cayce's Pyramid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 20:03:50 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:
>
> Dear Folk: Tomorrow I should have some time to do some more posting.
> John Winston.

You are definitely out of shapes - just 10 postings today, not counting
this really good one.



--
Ulrich C. Gall, Seebrooksberg 2, W-2300 Klausdorf, Germany
Tel.: [phone], EMail: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JW
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 06:41:04 PST
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[e-mail] (fis) writes:

> I suggest we have a whip round so that we can hire someone to pay a visit
> to Mr J Winston.
>
> On their arrival their duty would be to shove the largest object in the
> vicinity down his THROAT!
>
> JOHN - YOU'RE DOING OUR HEADS IN, AND WE WISH YOU WERE DEAD.
>
> [e-mail]
>

Well fis I'm strongly getting the feeling that you should find another
newsgroup to free yourself of your obvious emotional problem.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
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From: [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth)
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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pardon me is this is a FAQ, but who is this John Winston character?
(besides somone who apparently plagarizes sci-fi novels)

Simon

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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,talk.religion.newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:42:25 -0500
From: Mark Beirne Lively <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Big Bird
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Ferengi, just like sounds.

-I remember the the glory days when we sat with the king.
Dining on meh yams and washing it down with red rum.
[e-mail] Bear aka the Lord High Rulebender
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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Underground Alien Facilities
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:26:00 GMT
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To: [e-mail] (Author)

AU|I've been reading that there would be a number of underground facilities
  |for use by aliens in Arizona and New Mexico. Notably these facilities
  |would have been contructed underneath Native American Reservations. Is
  |there anyone out there who happens to know which reservations? Also I
  |would be interested to see if some of you, living in Arizona and New
  |Mexico, who have more information on this.
  `---------------------------------------------------------------------

  Here is a file I found on InfoNet that might answer some of your
  questions. UFO skeptic, Jacques Vallee is interrogating the
  Ex-Naval Intelligence Officer, Bill Cooper.

  (Vallee's questions are in Capitals and Cooper's answers are not.
   Valle is quite skeptical and is trying to make Cooper 'slip up',
   but in my opinion Cooper does a good job of answering all the
   questions.)

                          *     *     *

                    THE BILL COOPER BRIEFING
          from the book "Revelations" by Jacques Vallee

I've read your recent interview (in the MUFON Journal) where  you
say  you  don't believe in MJ-12, so it made me  wonder  why  you
wanted this meeting. - Bill Cooper

THE  INTERVIEW WAS DONE BEFORE I MET JOHN LEAR, BUT I WILL  GRANT
YOU THAT MY POSITION HASN'T CHANGED THAT MUCH. I BELIEVE THERE IS
A UFO PHENOMENON WHICH IS PHYSICAL IN THE USUAL SENSE, BUT IT CAN
MANIPULATE  SPACE AND TIME IN WAYS I CERTAINLY DON'T  UNDERSTAND;
PERHAPS  THERE  ARE PEOPLE AROUND WHO UNDERSTAND  IT.  -  Jacques
Vallee

They do, but go on...

I FURTHER BELIEVE, AS DO YOU, THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT MUST  HAVE
BEEN  STUDYING  IT FOR YEARS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN  THAT  MJ-12  IS
REAL.  THERE  IS  A HALL OF MIRRORS ONE ENTERS  AS  SOON  AS  THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS INVOLVED, AND WE'RE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE
OF IT. THEN I TALKED TO LINDA HOE AND FRED BECKMAN, BOTH OF  WHOM
RECOMMENDED  THAT  I LISTEN TO JOHN LEAR, WHO  IS  AN  IMPRESSIVE
FELLOW, AND HE SAID I SHOULD TALK TO YOU, AND HERE I AM.

I  became  involved in the UFO question as a  Naval  Intelligence
Man.  In  the period of 1971-72 I was ordered  to  brief  several
high-level officers about the contents of certain documents  that
were given to me. Those briefings had to do with the fact that  a
number of UFOs have been captured by the military and that  their
occupants  have been working along with our scientists.  We  have
entered into a treaty with them.

YOU  ARE GOING A LITTLE TOO FAST FOR ME. FIRST OF ALL,  WHAT  WAS
YOUR POSITION IN THE NAVY?

I  was  under  Admiral Clarey, as a member  of  the  Intelligence
briefing team.

WERE THE DOCUMENTS CLASSIFIED, AND AT WHAT LEVEL?

They were classified Top Secret/S.I.

WAS THERE A CODE WORD ATTACHED TO THEM?

MAJIC,  with a "J", was the code word. I am sure they changed  it
now.

HOW LONG WAS THE BRIEFING, AND WHERE WAS IT GIVEN?

There  were  several briefings, all of which took  place  at  the
Headquarters for Pacific Operations on the island of Hawaii.  The
building  overlooks Pearl Harbor. The first briefing was  a  two-
and-a-half-hour  general  overview,  then  there  were   periodic
updates as new information came to light.

WHY WERE THESE OFFICERS BEING BRIEFED?

Because  in  their operational capacity, they had  and  immediate
need to know. One, they might be required to recover some crashed
disks  in  the  future. Two, the UFOs might  be  misconstrued  as
offensive Soviet devices and fired upon, so they had to be  aware
of their existence.

WERE THERE INSTANCES WHEN THE UFOS POSED A REAL THREAT?

During  the Vietnam War a UFO shot down a B-52.  There were  also
cases when our troops were attacked by things they first  thought
were helicopters. There was some speculation at the time that the
Russians must have entered the war on the North Vietnamese  side,
so it became a pretty serious matter.

DID THE NAVY EVER PICK UP A DISK AFTER THAT?

There was an incident in which I was an actual witness, involving
the recovery of a craft that was later listed as a Soviet sub.  I
was in the command center when it happened, and I can assure  you
it was real.

HAVE YOU YOURSELF EVER SEEN AN ALIEN?

No.

HAVE YOU EVEN SEEN PART OF A CRASHED DISK?

No,  but  I  know two different men who were  assigned  to  guard
crashed disks and who have spoken to me.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN UFOS YOURSELF?

Once,  in  the  late summer of 1966, I was on watch  on  board  a
submarine, the USS Tiru, SS-416, on the way to Seattle, and three
of  us saw a disk as large as an aircraft carrier rising  out  of
the  sea two and a half miles away on the port side. It rose  and
was lost in the clouds, then it came back down again.

DID IT DISTURB THE OCEAN?

Not  really, the water would glide around it, as if it was  drawn
by a force field.

WERE THERE BRIEFINGS GIVEN TO HIGH-ECHELON OFFICERS BEFORE 1971?

There must have been, given the information in the documents. The
text  stated  that the first secret project  was  established  at
Eisenhower's orders in 1953. Ike asked Rockefeller to help him in
setting  up  an organization that could conduct a  study  without
government  agencies  or Congress being aware of  the  situation.
Rockefeller   established  it  under  the  "Jasons",   an   elite
intellectual  group. The task force was composed of  twelve  men,
including  Kissinger, Dulles, Brzezinski, George Bush, and  eight
others,  who  became  known  as the  the  MJ-12  under  operation
Majority.

WHERE DID THEY MEET?

At  a place called the Country Club. This way they could  mention
it openly without anyone knowing what they were talking about. It
was  a piece of land in Maryland which Rockefeller had set  aside
for the Jasons. It was only accessible through the air.
>>> Continued to next message
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: underground facilitie 2/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:26:00 GMT
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
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>>> Continued from previous message
AND  THE  INFORMATION THAT WAS KEPT SECRET HAD TO  DO  WITH  UFOS
SPECIFICALLY?

With  UFOs and with the Aliens. There are four types  of  aliens.
There are two kinds of "Grays", including one race, not  commonly
seen,  that has a large nose. Then there are the "Nordic"  types,
tall blonde Aryans, and finally the "Orange" ones.

WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?

I remember seeing several points of origin mentioned: Orion,  the
Pleiades, Betelgeuse, Barnard's star and Zeta Reticuli.

YOU MENTIONED WE HAD A TREATY WITH THEM?

Since 1964.

WHY  WOULD THEY GO TO THE TROUBLE OF ENTERING INTO A TREATY  WITH
US,  SINCE  THEIR  TECHNOLOGY IS FAR AHEAD  OF  OURS?  JOHN  LEAR
MENTIONED A BILLION YEARS.

They  needed  the  government  to  keep  their  presence  secret.
Remember,  we  had one of the Aliens in our  custody.  Our  radar
affected  their  navigation  system and threw  their  craft  off-
balance.

HOW ARE THEIR SHIPS POWERED?

With  a small nuclear reactor the size of a football. They use  a
space-time fold. I'm not a physicist, so I don't understand that.
Apparently  they  have  the ability to cloak  themselves,  to  go
invisible.

WHAT KIND OF METAL DO THEY USE?

In the early days it was pure magnesium. We couldn't duplicate it
at  the time, but now we could duplicate it in space, that's  why
there is so much interest in growing crystals in orbit. They  use
alloys that we can create on Earth but not with the same  pliable
structure.  Do  you know any of the astronauts? Ask  any  of  the
Apollo  astronauts about the moon. What they saw there. There  is
an Alien base on the dark side of the moon.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ALIEN THAT WAS CAPTURED?

He  died  in 1952 after being ill for one  year.  The  government
tried  to  save him. They broadcast messages into  space,  asking
that  his  people  come  and help. The result  of  that  was  the
Holloman  landing, on April 25, 1964, when another Alien came  to
work  with  our scientists. He gave us lots of  information.  The
Aliens  were  desperate  to have their  presence  on  Earth  kept
secret. We agreed to that, in exchange for their technology.  The
Aliens  were  given permission to conduct abductions.  They  said
they needed to do them on medical grounds. They were supposed  to
give MJ-12 the list of the humans they abducted. Then we began to
realize they lied to us.

WHERE ARE THE ALIENS NOW?

At  Area-51.  Everybody  thinks it is under control  of  the  Air
Force,  because it's at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.  But  in
reality  Area-51  is  under the Navy. The  Navy  has  operational
control  of field activities on this project. That also  includes
Area-2, which was originally built as an underground storage area
for the Atomic Energy Commission.

WHAT ABOUT GROOM LAKE?

Groom Lake is at Nellis, same thing. There is an Alien  Technical
Group at Nellis, and there is another one near Dulce, New Mexico,
on an Indian reservation.

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT'S TRUE?

That's  what the documents stated. It turns out there is a  large
magnetic  anomaly where the base is.  Perhaps  ground-penetrating
radar  would show what's inside, allegedly it is all  honeycombed
with  tunnels.  The document explains how to get  in,  where  the
doors are.

IS IT GUARDED?

No,  it's  not guarded. That would only attract  attention,  they
would  have to explain what it is. But once you go in, you  never
come out. I can take you there if you want.

WHAT WERE THE TWO DOCUMENTS THAT YOU USED FOR THE BRIEFINGS?  CAN
YOU DESCRIBE THEM?

The  thickest  one was a book, about three-quarters  of  an  inch
thick,  called "Grudge/Blue Book Report Number 13". People  think
Blue  Book was under the Air Force, but it wasn't. Blue Book  was
under Grudge, which in turn was assigned to the Air Force to run.
It had to do with abductees and implants.

WHAT WAS THE OTHER DOCUMENT?

It was an outline on Operation Majority, which also covered  Blue
Book.

HAS ANYONE ELSE SEEN THESE DOCUMENTS?

There  is  a  man  named  Bill English  who  is  in  hiding  near
Albuquerque, and who has seen the same things I did. He is afraid
for  his  life. They have already tried to kill  him  twice.  The
government  blew up a van in which he was riding with  two  other
fellows.  They  died, and he's lucky to have  escaped.  The  only
reason  nothing  happens  to  me is that  I  talk  to  people,  I
disseminate all the information I have. You must realize that for
a long time I kept it all inside, because I thought it was in the
interest of the country, and I had a high sense of duty. I  don't
have  that  sense anymore. It's all wrong. Too many  people  have
been killed because of this. It's completely illegal, and we have
been betrayed by the Aliens. We live under immense danger now.

HOW DID THIS OTHER MAN, BILL ENGLISH, GET TO SEE THE DOCUMENTS?

He  was  a  captain  in the U.S. Army,  Special  Forces.  He  was
assigned  as  an  information  analyst at  a  British  base.  The
document  came in the regular pouch. He was not supposed  to  see
it,  it was an error in routing. So he was kicked  out.  Attempts
were made on his life. He was ridiculed. Some people even said he
was on LSD!

WHAT  DID  YOU THINK OF THE 'COVER-UP" DOCUMENTARY,  RELEASED  BY
SELIGMAN?

It was part of the damned contingency plan, a deliberate  attempt
by  the  government to confuse people. Perhaps  I  shouldn't  say
this,  but  some  of  the  participants  are  informers  for  the
government.

WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE DOCUMENTARY, THEN?

To lead people away from the truth. All the Majestic-12 documents
that  Moore  has  presented were obvious fakes. It  was  done  to
discredit  the  people associated with that research.  The  whole
thing  read like a chapter in his book about the  Roswell  crash,
there  was  nothing new in it. The pictures of  Aliens  were  not
right. And Majestic-12 was not formed by Truman, as they implied.

DO YOU THINK IT IS EASY TO FOOL PEOPLE?
>>> Continued to next message
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: underground facilitie 3/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:26:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
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>>> Continued from previous message
The truth is so incredible...Look at this magnificent ship. (They
were  aboard the Queen Mary) Imagine the Queen Mary sailing  past
an island where the population was still living in the Stone Age.
What  would they say about it? That's our situation with  respect
to alien craft.

PRECISELY.  THE QUEEN MARY DOESN'T BOTHER TO ENTER INTO A  TREATY
WITH  THE  KING  OF EVERY LITTLE ISLAND.  AGAIN,  BILL,  I  DON'T
UNDERSTAND WHY THE ALIENS WOULD NEED A FORMAL TREATY WITH US,  IF
THEY  ARE SO ADVANCED. IT SEEMS TO ME THEY WOULD JUST  IGNORE  US
COMPLETELY.

They need to make sure the government would keep their  existence
from the public.

I  HAVE HEARD FROM JOHN, AND ALSO FROM LINDA HOWE, THAT THE  NAME
OF ALLEN HYNEK WAS MENTIONED IN REPORT-13?

Mentioned? He was the co-author of the damned thing!!! Hynek  was
completely involved in it, in the study of the abductions and the
implants. He even made the statement that one person in forty has
been  abducted and has received an implant. Of course, many  more
people have simply been abducted. The scary part is, what if  the
people who are in the government have all been implanted already?

ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT I KNEW HYNEK VERY WELL, AND THAT  WHAT
YOU  SAY ABOUT HIM MAKES NO SENSE TO SOMEONE WHO KNEW  THE  MAN'S
CHARACTER.

And all I can tell you is what was in that document. Hynek's name
was on the cover, and inside there were pictures of the  Holloman
landing, photos of Aliens, autopsy tables, and details of Project
Red-light, where we actually try to fly their craft, and  Project
Snowbird,  a cover for Red-light using  conventional  technology,
and  so  on. By the way, their craft don't crash  when  they  are
disabled,  they  settle in the impact crater where the  dirt  has
been pushed aside.

THERE  IS A CONTRADICTION HERE. BLUE BOOK, FROM WHAT I  SAW,  WAS
MOSTLY  A  PUBLIC RELATIONS PROJECT. THERE WAS  NO  FOLLOW-UP  ON
CASES, IN FACT. HYNEK KEPT COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT.

There  was  no  follow-up because they already  knew  what  those
things  were. But they still had to explain then to  the  public.
One  of the documents said specifically that he cases they  can't
explain should be referred to Philip Klass, who works in  cahoots
with the intelligence community. You know, things are never  what
they seem to be anymore.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE PURPOSE OF THE IMPLANTS?

Nobody knows. When an attempt is made to remove them, the  person
dies.

WAIT A MINUTE. IF THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE 1953, MANY OF  THE
IMPLANTED  PEOPLE  MUST ALREADY HAVE DIED  OF  PERFECTLY  NATURAL
CAUSES. IT WOULD BE A SIMPLE MATTER TO REMOVE THE IMPLANT  DURING
THE  AUTOPSY  AND STUDY IT. DON'T YOU THINK A  PATHOLOGIST  WOULD
NOTICE IT AND BE INTRIGUED ENOUGH TO TAKE IT APART?

(No Answer)

BILL,  IF WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME CAN BE PROVEN, WE WILL  HAVE  TO
RECONSIDER  EVERYTHING  WE  KNOW ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.  I  HAVE  NO
QUESTION THAT YOU ARE TELLING ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE, AND IF YOU SAY
YOU HAVE SEEN THIS REPORT-13, I AM WILLING TO TRUST YOU. BUT  THE
FACT THAT HYNEK'S NAME WAS ASSOCIATED WITH IT MAKES ME THINK THAT
IT WAS A COMPLETE FABRICATION.

I have seen the report myself and Hynek's name is on it.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE DONE NOW?

The  information should be disseminated to the public, as  widely
as possible.

DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT KNOWS?

Yes,  Bush  must  know, as a former  member  of  MJ-12.  Previous
presidents  were  only told what THEY wanted them  to  know.  The
President  would  have to blurt it out in the middle of  a  press
conference,  before  they  were aware that he was  going  to  say
anything.  Don't  you see? If the information was  released,  the
intelligence  community would collapse. Nobody would  ever  trust
those  people  again. As you know, Reagan  classified  everything
about UFOs. Nobody who does any work with the government can talk
about the subject, even if they do unclassified work.

YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY MEAN THAT! FOR ONE THING, IT WOULD VIOLATE THE
FIRST  AMENDMENT. FOR ANOTHER, NO ONE WOULD OBEY SUCH  AN  ORDER.
THE  GOVERNMENT  HASN'T EVEN DEFINED WHAT A UFO IS! IT  WOULD  BE
LIKE  YOUR  ASKING  ME  TO KEEP SECRET WHAT  WE  HAD  FOR  DINNER
TONIGHT, OR WHAT WE SAID TO EACH OTHER. YOU COULD NEVER FORCE  ME
TO  DO IT. I HAVEN'T AGREED TO IT IN ADVANCE.  FURTHERMORE  THERE
ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT WE HAD FOR DINNER TONIGHT, SO I COULDN'T
KEEP IT A SECRET EVEN IF I WANTED TO!

Reagan  ordered that no one doing any kind of business  with  the
U.S. government must discuss UFOs.

LET'S TALK MORE ABOUT THE ALIENS. WHY ARE THEY COMING HERE IN THE
FIRST PLACE?

There  is a document about Project Aquarius that deals  with  the
history of the Aliens and their interaction with Homo sapiens for
the last twenty-five thousand years. This interaction  culminated
with  the Basque culture and the Assyrans. But  Project  Aquarius
was closed. Their planet has turned into a desert following a war
they  had with another race. They have been devastated, they  are
in  evolutionary  decline, their digestive system  is  atrophied.
They come here in search of new genetic material.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

The government believes it!

HOW LONG DO THE ALIENS LIVE?

They  told us they lived four hundred and fifty years.  The  live
Alien  who  was left on Earth after Holloman was named  Krll.  He
gave  lots  of information, scientific data, some  of  which  was
published in the open scientific literature under the name O.  H.
Krill, after being sanitized. Very advanced stuff. Krill is still
alive.  Their biology is well-understood. They are  air-breathing
creatures like us, although the heart is connected to their lungs
as a single organ. Their digestive system is atrophied. They  are
chlorophyll-based,   plant-like,   if  you  will.   They   absorb
nourishment  through the skin, and they excrete through the  skin
too.

WHAT ABOUT THEIR BRAINS?

They  have two brains, separated by a bone partition,  but  going
into the same spinal cord.

DO YOU KNOW ANY DOCTOR WHO MIGHT HAVE ATTENDED THE ALIENS OR DONE
AN AUTOPSY?

Look  up the name Dr. Guillermo Mendoza. He nursed the one  Alien
who  died. He was a biologist, not an M.D. By the way,  they  did
feed the Alien ice cream, which he could eat in small  quantities
through a membrane in his mouth, and he did like strawberry.  And
he  was  partial  to Tibetan music. That  part  of  the  Seligman
"Cover-Up" documentary was true.

HOW DO THEY COMMUNICATE?
>>> Continued to next message
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: underground facilitie 4/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:26:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 26

>>> Continued from previous message
Among  themselves,  they communicate telepathically. They  use  a
translation device with us. When they first came, they  contacted
our scientists in binary code. You know, I'm not a religious man.
But  if  you look at the Bible. The Angels could  be  the  Nordic
types  and the Grays could well be the demonic ones.  After  all,
the  Bible  talks about a pact with the Devil in the  last  days,
after Israel is reinstated. Leading to Armageddon.

WHAT DID THE ALIENS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT?

The  information they gave us wasn't just scientific  data.  They
provided much on the occult side. They claimed that had a lot  to
do  with our religion. They spoke about witchcraft and  cults  on
Earth.

SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT ALL THAT?

I  am going to get the information out. I have resigned  from  my
job.  To begin with, I'm organizing a symposium at  Anaheim.  The
profits will be used to build up a reward fund for those who want
to  come  up  and  reveal what they  know.  Then  I'll  take  the
symposium to all the major cities.
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CONTACT NOTES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:35:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 11

Does anyone have information about transcripts from the teachings of the
Pleiadians to Billy Miejer? There are thousands of pages covering all
branches of science.

There are also over 800 pages of transcripts from UMMO Aliens in France.
I am interested in examining the contents of these Alien transcripts.
Thanks.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Penn State Ufo Discussion Group
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:31:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 17


 > From: [e-mail]
 > Date: 20 Nov 92 16:40:56 GMT
 > Organization: Penn State University
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

Janet,

I would be interested in any proceedings.  Please let me know concerning this.

Michael Corbin

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Underground Facilities
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:40:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 29


 > From: [e-mail] (Author)
 > Date: 20 Nov 92 14:43:19 GMT
 > Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > I've been reading that there would be a number of underground facilities
 >
 > for use by aliens in Arizona and New Mexico. Notably these facilities
 > would have been contructed underneath Native American Reservations. Is
 > there anyone out there who happens to know which reservations? Also I
 > would be interested to see if some of you, living in Arizona and New
 > Mexico, who have more information on this.

The stuff that you refer to is highly unreliable insofar as whether there are underground "alien" bases located in these places.  One of the most controversial and most-talked about is Dulce, New Mexico located on the Colorado-New Mexico border.  Allegedly Paul Bennewitz discovered this base along with other persons who claim to have independent corroboration to its reality.  But, there has never been any proof that there is even an underground facility there.  Dulce has had numerous reports of lights and


a couple of cattle mutilations around the place, but remember that this area is close to where a lot of mutilations and sightings occurred (Colorado-New Mexico).  I know of several people who have been to the Dulce area, but none of them have ever found anything.

 > The thing sounds pretty wild to me, but I commited myself to an open
 > mind
 > and a 'bann' on the word impossible.

As Joe Nickell once said, "While we should be open to new ideas, we should not wish to become as open as, say, a refuse can."  From Secrets of the Supernatural.  Nuff said.  :-)

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Jw
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:42:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 36


 > From: [e-mail] (Steven Malikoff)
 > Date: 23 Nov 92 02:49:09 GMT
 > Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > [e-mail] (fis) writes:
 > : I suggest we have a whip round so that we can hire someone to pay a
 > visit
 > : to Mr J Winston.
 > : On their arrival their duty would be to shove the largest object in
 > the
 > : vicinity down his THROAT!
 > : JOHN - YOU'RE DOING OUR HEADS IN, AND WE WISH YOU WERE DEAD.
 > : [e-mail]

 > Well said.
 > I never thought that a kill file would be so necessary, and have
 > tolerated
 > many different opinions on the net. However, the stupid postings of JW
 > have incensed me to the point that the first (and only) pattern in my
 > kill
 > file has become *_-_*.  Now, if only I could filter the threads that
 > include
 > his postings, too.


With the persistence that this fellow has, I wonder sometimes if he doesn't have an "agenda."  Perhaps it is wiser to just ignore him altogether.  Has anyone ever asked him for a bio and then checked it thoroughly?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f10.n2403.z2.FIDONET.ORG!Andre.Eichner
From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:57:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:2403/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
Lines: 22

Monday November 16 1992, Stephen Kuhn writes to All:

 SK> From: Rob Farquhar, temp. using this account.

Hi Rob!

 SK> travel. They include: The Abercan, a reptilian race reminiscent of hooded

[...]

 SK> eating legs, and walking legs

Sounds interesting!What is the source?
Is there a real source or is it your last dream?

cheers
   Andre

--
Andre Eichner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Renaming a.a.v.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:54:53 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 6

Perhaps we should change the name of this newsgroup to 'alt.john.winston'?

-Garrett



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Message from Aldebran
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:56:40 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 12

Please decode this sequence. It is from the Stellar League.

SU iikJJJ 19876

The code sequence is 8902

I got this from a secret contact.

-Garrett



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis!stone
From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Renaming a.a.v.
Message-ID: <stone.722614300@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 14:11:40 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] writes:

>Perhaps we should change the name of this newsgroup to 'alt.john.winston'?

>-Garrett

The way the daft bugger keeps flooding the place with his
tabloid bilge makes Garrett's suggestion seem like a
more viable alternative with each passing day...

T.R. Stone


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ppontis.oit.iupui.edu!IPAP400
From: [e-mail] (Pat Pontis)
Subject: Re: Renaming a.a.v.
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Integrated Technologies IUPUI
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 17:27:59 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12
X-Posted-From: ppontis.oit.iupui.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Renaming a.a.v.
>Date: 24 Nov 92 02:54:53 EST
>Perhaps we should change the name of this newsgroup to 'alt.john.winston'?
>
>-Garrett
>
>
>
Good Idea!  JW is a lot more fun than some on this group!
Pat
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Renaming a.a.v.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 18:25:19 GMT
Lines: 45

This idea has already been preposed months ago, face it folks,
John_-_Winston
is here to stay.

Bandwidth burning, noise generation, & tabloid exploitation have become a
new Olympic event for the next Olympiad. Hands down we have a GOLD medalist
here in a.a.v.:-)

Mr. Corbin could be right, but the hidden agenda has been exposed! JW is
just practicing for the Olympic trials.
===========================================================================
=====

On the lighter side:


BTW has anyone taken the Clinton letter to fruitation? Has it been sent
yet?
Has Henry Winkler been contacted?

Did anyone in the Bay Area catch the Michael Craznee(sp) show last night @
1000pm on KGO radio? His guest was one of the masterminds behind the SETI
Project. KGO seems to always get the same guy to do this show, he must give
a discount.

They had a few callers that mentioned UFOS & where pelted as usual with the
rhetoric so prevalent in NASA. A few chuckles then off to the next caller.
I am in the process of calling KGO & see if they can get someone on the pro
side of this issue on the show. Someone like Dr. Richard Haines, George
Knapp, etc.

Let you all know how it turns out.

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12902 alt.alien.visitors:11325 sci.skeptic:34724
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!comlab.ox.ac.uk!oxuniv!jdporter
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Abort
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 12:14:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Ex-aliens:  It was mentioned that it would be good to have a
> dictionary of another language. I was given some words used by another
> planet called Legart. About one in a hundred of the words are the same
> as ours. I remember one of the words that was the same was the word
> abort.
> John Winston


Yes, but what did it mean?  Oh yes, and where is Legart, by the way?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12905 alt.alien.visitors:11326 sci.skeptic:34740
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!emory!ogicse!das-news.harvard.edu!spdcc!rdonahue
From: [e-mail] (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 20:41:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Nov24.204155.4598
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: insert anything here
Lines: 21

[e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Aliens in Our Sky.
>  I will now put down a list of some of the aliens that are seen in UFOs in
>our sky.
>1. Grey Type A. Also known as Zeta Reticuli from the Zeta Reticulan star
>system (The Bernard Star) neighboring the Orion area.

    Dear John: some minor points for you.

    1) Barnard's Star is nowhere near Zeta Ret.
    2) Neither of them are in Orion
    3) Orion isn't a place, it's a projection on to an area of
        the sky.
    4) Bellatrix is a B2III star - it won't live long
enough to form planets, let alone planets that evolve into
intelligent life.

    Nice try - have Elvis give you better driections next time
'K?

BBC
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11327 alt.drugs:36057 alt.psychoactives:1816 alt.zines:255
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!hsdndev!news.cs.umb.edu!pbreton
From: [e-mail] (Peter Breton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.drugs,alt.psychoactives,alt.zines
Subject: Crash Collusion 'zine
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 22:08:42 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston
Lines: 8
Originator: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra.cs.umb.edu


  Issue #2 of CRASH COLLUSION is now out and available for $2 from

Wesley Nations PO Box 49223 Austin TX 78765

It contains articles about UFOs, Forteana, and hallucinogens, including a list
of companies that sell ethnobotanicals. The editor plans to publish another
issue in January, and is willing to swap or trade with contributors or
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12906 alt.alien.visitors:11328 sci.skeptic:34743
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
From: [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 22:41:59 GMT
Lines: 21

[e-mail] writes:

>13. People from inside our Earth.

The short ones with pointy little red caps?

>21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
>of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.

No, you are WRONG on this one John.  Aldeberon got nuked by the Death Star, I
saw it happen.

>There are over 100 places that people are coming from to observe Earth.
>John Winston.

No Wookies?
--
            What's the frequency, Kenneth?

DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown    [e-mail]    ...uunet!slack.sim.es.com!pashdown
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12912 alt.alien.visitors:11329 sci.skeptic:34766
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!news.adelaide.edu.au!spam!jaskew
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Summary: Two more days until Unemployment!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 05:37:08 GMT
References: <stone.721943773@cwis> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>     The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
>     child-eating varmints!

So they aren't all bad then?

BTW which is worse, a little man from outer space who rapes women or one
that doesn't? (just think what they *do* rape then)

Besides, it shows that they have a lot in common with Humanity -
they like our women and children! A definite good sign.


Joseph Askew


--
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
[e-mail]  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Salesas)
Subject: Re: Cayce's Pyramid
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 06:11:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 24

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
> Posted: 22 Nov 92 01:34:27 GMT
>
> Org.  : The Portal System (TM)
>
> Dear Folk: Tomorrow I should have some time to do some more posting.
> John Winston.



Phew!  I was getting worried!  Please, John, always keep us informed like
this, it _really_ makes us feel soooooo much better to know that your posts
won't suddenly come to an end.

Rob

--
\------------------------------------------------------------------------/
\ Robert Salesas             | Internet: [e-mail]   /
\ Eschalon Development Inc.  | CIS:    76625,1320  Tel/Fax: [phone] /
\------------------------------------------------------------------------/

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From: [e-mail] (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 20:48:08 MST
References: <[e-mail]> <roelle.721939012@uars_mag> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Not an Organization
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Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> >Well, ya know, what I can't figure is that if these guys in the flying
> >saucers are so smart, why haven't they figured out how to do e-mail
> >yet and got linked to the internet?
> >uuisis!testsys!doug
>
> They have!
>
> You can do a lot as an ET is you are willing to enter a human body (be
> a Walk-in) or incarnate in a human family from birth (be what they
> call a Crawl-in). Most ET's choose to help us from spiritual planes or
> stay in their ships, but there are a few bold, excitement craving ones
> who like to get down and dirty and live among us in human bodies.

What sort of lives do you think these people might lead?  Supposing that
this is possible, I would think that "human-aliens" among us (if such
people do exist) would purposely choose to lead an extremely traumatic
or difficult life. What better way to learn human nature than to experience
it at its worst?  Comments on this topic are appreciated.

> Many New-agers or Star-people are in this category. Most know who they
> are but a few don't yet. Living in the dense, evolving aura of Earth
> can make one temporarily forget their cosmic origins, if they weren't
> already an ET Master when they came to Earth. Now, the Galactic

What is to differentiate an "alien in a human body" from a regular person?
You must agree that there must be no physical difference, or they would
surely be discovered.  What is it then?  A more 'advanced' soul?  I doubt
it.  There must be something, if this theory is to seem reasonable.

> Confederation doesn't land or show their ships openly to the masses
> because we of Earth are not collectively ready for it, and they are
> not allowed to interfere. However, since the ET's in human form fall
> under Earth's karmic law, they are allowed to openly spread their
> wisdom, sometimes admitting their origin causing others to think they
> are weird, and other times being more subtle. Of course, remember that
> many of we of Earth have lots of wisdom too and most of the ETs here
> are still learning themselves, too. At least that's the way I see it.

What do you mean, 'karmic law'?  Do you suppose that they might have
certain unusual abilities (especially mental or paranormal)?  I mean,
even if one does not know exactly whom he is or why he is here, there
must be some way to differentiate between himself and a 'regular person.'

Let's get some input on the subject!

--
%"Vhuuut, you donna' like'a my zooop?"-Fred Flintstone, impersonating a chef
% kellY Martin  UUCP:[e-mail]  (1:342/53.5@fidonet)

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 11:43:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>13. People from inside our Earth.
>
> The short ones with pointy little red caps?

Grow up, man.  There are creatures we know nothing of.  It makes perfect sense
to believe that once, thousandsof years ago, a whole race descendedto escape
natural disasters such as a flood (the great flood as described in the bible?)
and remain there.  You shouldn't dismiss this possibillity so easily.  We're
not talking about Hobbits here but the possibillity of a whole race, possibly
even new species existing that we still know nothing of.





>
>>21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
>>of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
>
> No, you are WRONG on this one John.  Aldeberon got nuked by the Death Star, I
> saw it happen.
>

While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little doubt
that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Plains, are evidence of the
existence of extraterrestrial life.



>>There are over 100 places that people are coming from to observe Earth.
>>John Winston.
>
> No Wookies?

What is this, kindergarten?


> --
>             What's the frequency, Kenneth?
>
> DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
> Pete Ashdown    [e-mail]    ...uunet!slack.sim.es.com!pashdown
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 12:13:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 124

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Subject: Aliens in Our Sky.
>   I will now put down a list of some of the aliens that are seen in UFOs in
> our sky.
> 1. Grey Type A. Also known as Zeta Reticuli from the Zeta Reticulan star
> system (The Bernard Star) neighboring the Orion area.

I and a friend believe that we have seen these Aliens.  We both used to have
some really heavy UFO experiences because his village is the local epicentre
for psychic activity.  A Scottish King died when crossing a river there and
it's a totally freaky place.
   Anyway, you'd often get objects flying over in formation, both day and
night.  The locals have photographic evidence, but naturally don't wish to be
regarded as freaks or liars.
   One evening were up on a small hill and we heard a low humming noise.  From
the south came this large shape in the air.  The sky was kind of dusky and
there were no lights on the craft.  It seemed metallic and rounded.  We saw it
come down behind a row of trees near the town cemetery and went running to see.
   The object we saw was  standingon a flat patch of ground, not touchingit but
only a few feet over.  For some reason we ran away.  When we got back to his
home we realised that it had gotten dark very quickly but just assumed ithad
become cloudy.  Then we saw that it was past 11 o'clock although it had only
been seven-ish when we firstsaw the craft.  4 hours were missing.
   That night we both had the same dream.  The next day we astounded each other
by telling it bit by bit exactly to each other.
   We had been inside the ship, which was like a TARDIS.  It was as big as a
house inside but from the outside it had looked the size of a helicopter.
There were no sci-fi banks of lights and computers.  It seemed very oganic,
with plants and indoor waterfalls inside.
   We couldn't see anyone as yet, but were watching a wall.  A quiet  voice was
speaking to us inside our heads and it told us to watch the wall.  Then the
wall started to flash like a strobelight.  It flashed for about 20seconds and
then stopped.  Wecant decide what this was.  Our conclusion was that either we
were being studied or it was giving us knowledge.  Both of us have since had
flashes of telepathy or stuff like seeing in perfect vision, like very very
sharp and far brighter and clearer than normal(third eye vision?).
    Next a single figure came in.  He was about 3-3.5 feet tall and wore a
costume like a Jawa in Star Wars only itwas white.  when we saw his face it was
greyish and reminded me of an insect or a dolphin without the nose.   He had
oriental eyes that seemed to smile.  This figure didn't do anything or say
anything but just looked at us.  We did not talk to us.  There both our dreams
ended.
    We can only conclude that all this actually happened in the 4 hours we
lost.



> 2. Greysof the hawkish, abrupt, crude and blunt temperment.
> 3. The  master race of reptilian=type aliens. They boss the greys around.
> 4. Tall greys from Orion. Usually about 7 to 8 ft. tall. They have large
> noses.  These grey are less viscous towards humans than the smaller greys
> but are still considered hostile.
> 5. Grey type C. These are the shortest of the greys and tend to be about 3.5
> ft. tall.  They are just as hostile to humans as the Zetas. They are from a
> star system near the shoulder of Orion called Bellatrax.
> 6.  Human type A. These are of a genetic base similar to humans of earth.
> They appear of normal height (5 to 6 ft. ) and tend to be fair-skinned with
> blonde hair.  These entities have been abducted by the greys or are the
> offspring of abductees and have been trained by the greys as servants.
> These entities are totally subservient to the greys.
> 7. Human type B. These are aliens of similar genetics to earth humans. These
> are from the Pleiades and are also of the blond, fair skinned appearance.
> This type is of a genuine highly spiritual, benevolent variety and have a
> kinship toward humans and are the only aliens to be truly trusted by earth
> human at this time (except the other good guys). They had at one time
> offered to be of assistance to earth leaders in dealing with the alien
> situation here but were rebuffed and so have taken a kind of hands off
> approach for the time being. These aliens are supposedly the forefather of
> our  race of humankind.
> 8.  Human Type C. Beings from Sirius who are benevolent to earth people.
> 9. Good guys from Vega
> 10. "    "    "   Arcturas.
> 11.  Mt. Shasta - the Silver Fleet, Lemurian.
> 12.   "    "    another Fleet I can't remember the name. Some of these people
> are formerly from Atlantis.
> 13. People from inside our Earth.
> 14.  Jupiter - the Adamic Race.
> 15.  Venus, about 5 races and colors. (nord or nordic people because they are
> blonde and look like Swedish people).
> 16. Venus
> 17.  "
> 18.  "
> 19.  "
> 20. Mars (the forefathers of the Chinese race on Earth).

Sorry John, Martians were the forefathers of the Samoan race.


> 21.
 Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
> of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
> 22. The Five Galaxy Cross from Legart and about 2 other planets in that system
> that contain a total of 9 billion people. They are about 17 light years
> away. Jarton is a person from there.
> 23.  Five Galaxy Cross.
> 24.   "     "      "
> 25, Shamballa.
> 26. Rainbow City at the South Pole.
> 27. The Seven Cities of Shan.
>
28. Crystal City- in orbit around the Earth-300 miles square.

Er, John shurely some mistake here.  If there werea city in orbit wouldn't it
be well known and documented?  Or is there a cover-up in operation?  I doubt it
because an object 300 miles across would be clearly visible with a small
telescope.  Please elaborate.


> 29. The New Jerusaleum - 1500 miles square.
> 30. The other side of the Moon.
> 31. Satonians.
> 32. Wormwood- should be coming around soon.
> 33. Ashtar Command-many places many people, mostly of the 4th and higher
> dimensions.
> 34. A planetoid of the Meteorite Belt. What is left of Maldek after it blew up.
> 35. Clarion.
> 37.  Satilites of some of our large planets.
> 38.  Trandor-headquarters of the Solar Cross organization.
> There are over 100 places that people are coming from to observe Earth.
> John Winston.


Time travel and space travel?  Maybethere are over 100 times that people are
coming from to observeEarth.
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From: [e-mail] (BULLDAWG)
Subject: Re: Blue Lint from the Dryer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords:  Better late then never.....
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 13:38:38 GMT
Lines: 29

It's because detergent manufacturers put a flourescent dye (which is slightly
blue) in the suds to make clothes "brighter."  Grandma would call it
"bluing."

Ken

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kirsten Starcher) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Taed Nelson) writes:
>>|> It seems that whenever I wash and then dry my clothes that the "lint" (AKA
>>|>   "fluff") that gets caught in the "lint trap" is _always_ some shade of blue.
>>Now, _anyone_ with a certain level of education (i.e. who has read Douglas
>>Adam's Hitch-hiker trilogy) would now, and be able to recognize this as the
>>first trials of interstellar contact from the super-intelligent shade of blue
>>of the planet - eh - eh - (What's the name again folks?).
>
>I don't think it says what the planet is, but the color is known as a
>Hooloovoo...
>
>
>.............................................................................
>.Kirsten Starcher...............................Your breath is steaming up...
>[e-mail].........................my contact lenses............
>[e-mail]...................................................
>.................Memorial University, St. John's, Newfoundland...............
>...This posting brought to you by the letters f, y, v, and the number i......
>.............................................................................


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From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: What is going on lately...
Keywords: stollman,invasion,ufos,clones
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 14:32:47 GMT
Lines: 21


Well, I know it has been a while since I last posted, but I have been
involved.  God and his angels have been taking care of my problems, so
there really hasn't been a heck of a lot to complain about!!  I have been
going out with Joan a lot lately, and that has been keeping me pretty
busy.  The only thing of notice was when we were going up to her apartment
one night last week, the elevator went by itself to the fourth floor
without our having to push the button which is quite impossible, and
nobody else had pushed the button on that floor.  I haven't been working
on my book lately, but I hope to change that soon.  The angel of my old
girlfriend is still working at the bookstore, and I introduced myself to her
two weeks ago, but as I have been busy with Joan, I haven't had the time
to get to know her yet.  But I am sure going to try!!!


--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12915 alt.alien.visitors:11336 sci.skeptic:34781
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!news.encore.com![e-mail]
From: bcacciol@encore (Forklift of Pain)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: none
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 14:55:54 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet readnews user id)
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Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
> > [e-mail] writes:
> >
> >>13. People from inside our Earth.
> >
> > The short ones with pointy little red caps?
>
> Grow up, man.  There are creatures we know nothing of.  It makes
perfect sense
> to believe that once, thousandsof years ago, a whole race descendedto escape

Uh huh. Yes. Perfect sense. Please continue...


> While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little doubt
> that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Plains, are evidence of the
> existence of extraterrestrial life.
>

Yes. Little doubt. You are correct, sir. Pyramids by excra, exa,
er, EXTRA-terrestrial life (had to clear my throat there).
I did not know that.

>
> What is this, kindergarten?

No, this is the Internet, as much as it resembles a first-grade
class with a substitute teacher. Though some believe it was created by
the Rosicrucians (of which there can be little doubt, I tell you).

bc
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 15:42:45 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 14

Think I saw a UFO over Dundee on Monday evening at 4.40pm over the Tay.

It started with a bright pinpoint of light over the Tay.  I was sitting staring
out of the window and noticed it and thought it was just a bright star (it was
almost completely dark outside).  Then it started to move from it's stationary
position with increasing speed towards the city centre  along the Tay.  I then
thought it was a plane because they come over quite often towards Dundee
Airport, but I was confused about how it had been standing still, like a star.
Then it made a wide turn and swept back far closer to my position and I was
able to see that the object was quite flat and didn't seem to have wings or
tail.  All the time it had a single white light shining, similar to craft I
have seen before.

Did anyone else in Dundee/area see this object?
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ^^^DUNDEE UFO^^^^
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 15:03:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Think I saw a UFO over Dundee on Monday evening at 4.40pm over the Tay.
>
> It started with a bright pinpoint of light over the Tay.  I was sitting staring
> out of the window and noticed it and thought it was just a bright star (it was
> almost completely dark outside).  Then it started to move from it's stationary
> position with increasing speed towards the city centre  along the Tay.  I then
> thought it was a plane because they come over quite often towards Dundee
> Airport, but I was confused about how it had been standing still, like a star.
> Then it made a wide turn and swept back far closer to my position and I was
> able to see that the object was quite flat and didn't seem to have wings or
> tail.  All the time it had a single white light shining, similar to craft I
> have seen before.
>
> Did anyone else in Dundee/area see this object?
>
>
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!csd-d-3.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 17:46:53 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>  [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:

.. deleted ..

>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little doubt
>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Plains, are evidence of the
>existence of extraterrestrial life.

Oh really?  While I was reading a book by Martin Gardner about this
sort of stuff, he was talking about some other book which claimed more
or less what you say.  Mr. Gardner made a remark which I thought was
fairly interesting.  He said (more or less) "This person has no difficultly
believing that Stonehenge was built by people, or that Hadrians wall was,
or the castles of England.  Oddly enough all these structures were built
by white people.  Of course, if Africans or Mexicans have huge
constructions in their countries it must be because extra-terrestrials
helped them.  Dark skinned people couldn't possibly do it by themselves."

Why are the pyramids and Nazca lines evidence for ETs?

C Frog
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From: [e-mail] (Danny Jordan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Viewing Great Wall From Space [was Re: Monuments of Mars]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 92 07:26:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
Organization: Plan 9 From Outer Space
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: loligo.cc.fsu.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Actually, the Great Wall of China *can* be seen with the naked eye. I have
>seen a normal (i.e. no magnification, flash (just kidding on the last
>one!)) photograph of Earth from space, and it did show the Great Wall,
>although it was quite dim. Of course, we all know that it wasn't built
>with space people in mind.....(unless there's something I don't know about)

  Actually you cannot see the great wall from space what you are seeing
 are centuries of sediment that has built up on one side of the wall
 since it was built.
--
====================================================================
= Don't let 'em kid ya folks    = Danny Jordan
= It's all just lines of paper! = [e-mail]
=             --R. Crumb        =   One Nation Under God...Or Else
=====================================================================
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jnielsen
From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: stollman,invasion,ufos,clones
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 18:45:31 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>
>Well, I know it has been a while since I last posted, but I have been
>involved.  God and his angels have been taking care of my problems, so
>there really hasn't been a heck of a lot to complain about!!  I have been
>going out with Joan a lot lately, and that has been keeping me pretty
>busy.  The only thing of notice was when we were going up to her apartment
>one night last week, the elevator went by itself to the fourth floor
>without our having to push the button which is quite impossible, and
>nobody else had pushed the button on that floor.  I haven't been working

Impossible??

Couldn't someone have pushed the button on the 4th and then decided
the elevator was too slow so they took the stairs. I normally
take the stairs up to 5 floor here because I can eaisly beat the elevator.

Also, sometimes elevators mess up.

john
--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
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Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
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Jeez, Johnny---how could you leave out the Lectroids from Planet Ten?

John Whorfin, John Big-Boote~, John Small Berries, John O'Connor
and the rest (not to mention Buckaroo Banzai) are gonna be REALLY
cheesed off at YOU, boy...
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
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I'm replying to Jim Tims's posting of Bob Silberg's letter.

I think that Bob failed to see the point in some places:

    >Consider: If one wants to strengthen one's body by lifting
    >weights, one doesn't begin with the heaviest weights and
    >gradually reduce the load as strength increases.  On the
    >contrary, one starts light and easy, and steps up the challenge
    >as the muscles grow more powerful.

This analogy is a clever trick, but it doesn't work. Let's take a similar
example: To learn to swim, you have first to sit in one inch of water, then
two. You should only attempt over six inches of water if you are an
accomplished swimmer! - Ever heard of being thrown in at the deep end?

    >Similarly, if life is the soul's gym, the newer or weaker souls
    >surely would not be given the monumental challenge of living with
    >poverty, disease, and despair.  No, they would be given lives of
    >ease to begin with; and, if they did good jobs at those, then the
    >load could be increased with the next go-round.

But when you're thrown in at the deep end, there is no easy way out - sink or
swim. There is also no way out for the souls in the lowest levels of
humanity. They can't say, "OK, I give up, I'll go back to being a senator".

    >No, they would be given lives of ease to begin with; and, if they did
    >good jobs at those, then the load could be increased..

- And if they always did *bad* jobs, they would end up as .. God?

    >Logically, it follows that..

- Only if I accept the premise in the first place, which I don't.

     >Shirley MacLaine, the rich, famous, talented, beautiful movie star, must
    >have really screwed up in her multitude of previous lives.
    >Billy Joel, the rich, famous, successful rock star married to
    >Christie Brinkley, must have a soul that is brand new.  No one
    >could have made such a mess of previous lives ...

There is a Sufi wisdom which maintains that the ultimate luxury is to have
someone envy you. Sounds like these people mentioned have got just that.

What Bob doesn't see here: it is exactly this kind of life that is the most
difficult to lead without succumbing to material temptation. This is the real
test of a soul. The ultimate barrier for one branch of spiritual learning is
one's own spiritual pride. "- Now I know it all.."

    >Ironically, many people may be pursuing lives of kindness,
    >tolerance, and generosity out of the mistaken notion that they
    >will be rewarded by coming back as ..

It is their *motives* that count, not their deeds, so these fail anyway.

I personally don't believe that the social or material standing is raised
with each life. I believe we decide how much we can take before we come.

    >Such misguided souls would lie, cheat, steal, or worse

These "sins" in themselves may not be evil. It depends on the motive. If you
are stealing from people who can easily afford it when there is *no other
way* to save a person in need, I think it's a good thing. If you are lying to
save someone from being raped/killed, what's wrong with that?

I would just like to add that even if not every past life regression is
"true", what does it matter? People like Don can help others in this life
anyway. (I'm not knocking Don here) If these people believe that they are
reliving real lives (I accept that some "memories" are not from past lives),
it often helps them tremendously. -"Now I understand my fear of men" .. "So
that's why I've always been suspicious of my wife" ..

The truth is, it doesn't matter anyway, does it? The main thing is, we all
get to Heaven in the end! Yippee!
                                    Love and blessings,    Paul.







Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 19:26:38 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>> [e-mail] writes:
>> The short ones with pointy little red caps?
>
>Grow up, man.  There are creatures we know nothing of.  It makes perfect sense
>to believe that once, thousandsof years ago, a whole race descendedto escape
>natural disasters such as a flood (the great flood as described in the bible?)
>and remain there.  You shouldn't dismiss this possibillity so easily.  We're
>not talking about Hobbits here but the possibillity of a whole race, possibly
>even new species existing that we still know nothing of.
>
>
Oh, you mean they wear GREEN caps.  Ohhhh......
Look, the whole Hollow Earth theory is completely ludicrous.  If
indeed the Earth is hollow, then how do you explain its gravitational
activity, calculated to several dozen decimal places with several
dozen objects?  We can measure the force of gravity and from that
we can get the mass of the Earth.  If the Earth is hollow, then
the force of gravity would be less...but it isn't, so it ain't.
Hate to be the shriveled carrot under your peach cobbler, but the
world ain't hollow and there ain't nobody inside.
>
>
>>
>>>21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
>>>of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
>>
>> No, you are WRONG on this one John.  Aldeberon got nuked by the Death Star, I
>> saw it happen.
>>
>
>existence of extraterrestrial life.

No, no no no no no no no.  The Pyramids in Egypt are evidence of the
ingenuity and patience of the Ancient Egyptians (as well as their
THRIVING slave labor trade), and the Nazca Lines are evidence of the
religious devotion of the natives living there.  These are not
mysteries, they are anthropological truths, found through decades
(and, in the case of the Pyramids, centuries) of research and
extrapolation.

    Jason

    The Mad Mad Mad Mad Solipsistic Mad World

ObCrackpottery: The MENACE of ROSS PEROT, GREY, has CLEARLY been
        AVERTED by the recent news of the DESTRUCTION OF THE
        EARTH by comet SWIFT-TUTTLE in 2112!!!!! ROSS obviously
        does not want to RULE a DOOMED PLANET!!!!
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality^2
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 18:52:19 GMT


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John F Nielsen) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Opera_Ghost) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:

> That is not the point. You do not prove something's existance
> by not being able to disprove it's existance.
>
> I cannot disprove that a purple red wood with candy canes for leaves
> exists in Australia. However, that does not make it unreasonable
> to say that it does not exist. Without any proof an alien is in
> the same catagory as the purple redwood.
>


I Know a few theologists who would disagree with you.

Disclaimer "This statement by no means suggests that I agree with either side
of the discussion, I just disagree with you."

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly)
Subject: Re: Past Life regression - the proof (was GSI Day)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
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In response to the condensed article regarding reincarnation being backwards...
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

There was a very famous sleeping prophet which I hope some of you have heard
of named Edgar Cayce.  He lived in the earlier 1900's and prophesized for
almost 40 years.  His prophecies, advice, and teachings covered every possible
topic from _How to get rid of blisters_ to _What is the soul_.  He is quite
famous for his beliefs and explanantions of reincarnation.  The previous
mentioned article is very narrow and unaware of this mans accepted views
on reincarnation.

Basically, the previous explanantion of why we reincarnate is close enough
to use.  The one thing I would add is that according to Cayce our souls are
basically a way for _God_ to grow, or what ever you want to call this higher
power (Believe me I am far from a God or Jesus freak!).  A soul is a small
slice, or piece, of God which can grow through multiple life experiences.
When this has grown to its most mature, pure form it strengthens and builds
_God_.

To continue, the big difference from this article and Cayce, is the way we
continue to come back.  We do not go from living in ditches, to a palace, then
back to God.  Our soul returns in whatever form (human only), at whatever time
with whatever experiences planned, as it finds necessary to learn and expand
some specific things or everything.  For example I read of one old women whom
had a life reading and was told that she was an advanced soul, but was returned
to her current life in order to learn and understand the feeling of _family_.
In past lifes she had often been a commanding, man and did not know the
emotion and love of _family_.  In this life she was a great mother and grand
mother.  One friend of mine who had a past life reading has had over 2,000
previous lifes, and one women I know (a psychic) has had less than 150.

There are many books about Edgar Cayce, many about specific topics he           prophesized about.  Some of his other famous topics include the past civiliz-   ation of Atlantis, Healing/Medicine, and the coming of new ages and cycles.

By the way, we are near the end of a 40 year testing period as we fade in to
the next age (each lasting 2,000 years).  I believe we are going from the
age of Pisces to Aquarius (or vice versa).  Each age has a new leader (model)
such as Christ in the latest age.  Depending on how we respond to the test
will depend on how we become introduced to the new age.  Look at all of the
incredible man made and natural events occuring lately, and the state of the
nations!  We will probably be ending the testing between 1996-1998 and
will experience considerable natural and man made changes in our world.
This will probably include nuclear war, reversing of the poles, new oceans
and new lands (and disappearing ones also!).

Please do not be narrow minded.  It astounds me that people fight so hard to
prove that the only existence is what we have right in front of us from one
minute to the next - that we are limited to 5 senses only.  What is everyone
afraid of?  Reading some of Edgar Cayces material may very well make you
a believer, and give you insight as well as long term hope.


Matthew Marsh


From: [e-mail] (Keith Spears)
Sender: [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: hypnosis experimentation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 10:55:00 -0600
Lines: 24

RP>Subjects were flashed (I assume slides) images of the back of a car.
  >The license plates were unreadable. It seems that the subjects would
  >recall a license number under hypnosis. I do not recall if it was some
  >or all. The conclusion I recall was that they would come up with the
  >numbers in order to please the hypnotist.

RP>I am not trying to be vague, this is what I remember.

Without know precisely how the questions were phrased, though, it would
be hard to take those results as conclusive of anything.  Exact wording
can make a big difference - if they asked "leading" questions, the
answers may well have been meaningless.

While I've never used hypnosis in connection with alien abductions (and
therefore can't say much on the validity of implanting memories of
such), I've noticed that people do occasionally take "past life
regressions" as experiences that have truly happened, i.e. the
regression incorporated into memory as an actual event.  Not too often,
though, and it's not something I've really documented.

 * OLX 2.1 TD * That is not dead which can eternal lie...


 * Origin: THE CITY LIGHTS <612-633-1366> <MULTINODE> <14.4> (1:282/108)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Monuments of Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>
>Yes, I have been corrected from several quarters so I will relent:
>1. You can see man-made lakes from orbit, and
>2. With certain photographic equipment and correct atmospheric
>conditions you can see the Great Wall from a low orbit.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can see *all kinds* of man-made stuff from
low earth orbit (just a few hundred KM). I wouldn't even rule out seeing
major interstate highways, etc. Cities would be easily noted, even when
not lit. How I suspect all this got started:

A.  The claim has often been made that "The Great Wall of China is the
    only man-made structure that would be visible to the naked eye from
    the moon."

B.  Then, somebody finally got around to (correctly) debunking that; the
    moon is roughly 1000 times more distant from the earth's surface than
    a spacecraft in low earth orbit. No, Virginia, you CANNOT see the
    Great Wall from there.

C.  Then somebody got even more confused, and changed this to "You cannot
    even see the Great Wall from space." Of course, at 1/1000 the lunar
    distance, you'll see it quite easily.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
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From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>>>13. People from inside our Earth.
>>
>> The short ones with pointy little red caps?
>
The whole problem is even if all this stuff about aliens is true, you
still need some type of proof to prove the point. Otherwise why
should one believe you any more than anyone else?

For example, someone may have had the idea that all objects fall
at the same speed if you take out air resistance. It may be a nice
idea, but if you cannot prove it, then that is all what it is, a nice
idea.

And, regardless of how honest a person may be, anectodotal evidence
is worthless. If you had to accept anectodotal evidence then
the whole idea of knowledge is worthless. Why should we accept
your anectodotal evidence more than anyone else?

>Grow up, man.  There are creatures we know nothing of.  It makes perfect sense
>to believe that once, thousandsof years ago, a whole race descendedto escape
>natural disasters such as a flood (the great flood as described in the bible?)
>and remain there.  You shouldn't dismiss this possibillity so easily.  We're
>not talking about Hobbits here but the possibillity of a whole race, possibly
>even new species existing that we still know nothing of.
>

Just because it could possibly happen, that does not mean that it did
happen. It's possible that there are invisible beings that jump
around in the air causing our weather patterns, which have craftily
made it so we can not detect them, but does that mean that they
exist? Why makes your ideas more plausible than the next guys?

>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little doubt
>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Plains, are evidence of the
>existence of extraterrestrial life.

If extraterresterials made or helped make the pyramids why was not
there any evidence of technology more advanced than of that time
(like stainless steel bolts, power tools, anything of higher
technological manufacture). I'd think if aliens were helping to
build the objects they would at least use better stuff than
primitive technology.

Also, what would they need them for? Pretty things to look at?
They would probably have already extensive navigating systems.

>
>>>There are over 100 places that people are coming from to observe Earth.
>>>John Winston.

That may very well be true, but if you cannot prove it with
*something* *anything*, Your word is no better than mine.

For example, if I have a theory that these little invisisble people
fly around making our weather patterns how would you disprove it?

You may counter that we could detect bodies in the air currents
even if we could not see them.

I would then counter with that they are so technologocally
advanced that they figured out a way around it.

You would then counter with something

I would then counter with something else.

The thing is, as long as I have to prove nothing then I can
continue adding to the story ad infinitum with every attempt
you make to show i am wrong.

So, why is my little weather people any less believeable than
the other theories?


john
--
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From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Wake up to reality^2
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John F Nielsen) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Opera_Ghost) writes:
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>
>> That is not the point. You do not prove something's existance
>> by not being able to disprove it's existance.
>>
>> I cannot disprove that a purple red wood with candy canes for leaves
>> exists in Australia. However, that does not make it unreasonable
>> to say that it does not exist. Without any proof an alien is in
>> the same catagory as the purple redwood.
>>
>
>
>I Know a few theologists who would disagree with you.
>
>Disclaimer "This statement by no means suggests that I agree with either side
>of the discussion, I just disagree with you."
>

Ok show me your point?

If you are talking about FAITH, that is a whole other ballpark.

Faith wouldn't be faith if there was proof. The whole idea of faith
revolves around the fact that there is no proof, you have to have
FAITH that whatever it is exists.

But, that does not mean anyone else should believe you.

john
--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
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From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Date: 25 Nov 1992 22:15:30 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Pete Ashdown) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
> >21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great
Pyramid
> >of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
>
> No, you are WRONG on this one John.  Aldeberon got nuked by the Death
Star, I
> saw it happen.
>
No, no, no.  It was ALDERAAN that got nuked by the Death Star.

To paraphrase someone else, if you're going to plagiarize George Lucas,
at least get it right.
--
| Michael Agney          | Yd - gender neutral pronoun    |
|                        |      (well, not quite)         |
|                        | Source:  Stories by Alison     |
| [e-mail] | Tellure, back issues of Analog |
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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pictures of Alien (Roswell)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 10:46:54 PST
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 17

Hi, everyone. I was reading UFO Crash Secrets at Wright/Patterson Air
Force base, by James W. Moseley. On the backcover of this book a picture
apperently of one of the aliens recovered from the crash site. This
picture seems to originate from the late Prof Zigel. At the end of page
82 of that book it is said that recently a third photo of a far superior
quality is circulating among American UFOlogists.

Does anyone have more information on that picture and possibly even has
seen it. Please let me know.

Greetings Peter

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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Underground Facilities
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 09:52:06 PST
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>
>  > The thing sounds pretty wild to me, but I commited myself to an open
>  > mind
>  > and a 'bann' on the word impossible.
>
> As Joe Nickell once said, "While we should be open to new ideas, we should no
>
> Mike

I couldn't agree more, the thing is however that one should never take
something as unimportant or irrelevant before investigating it. One can
say for oneself this or that conjecture is less likely, but one can only
come to a more or less definite conclusion after at least doing some
research.

Greetings Peter

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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 19:00:38 PST
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Dear Combatants: Now in this corner we have Don Showen and the other
is the great amazing Robert Sheaffer.  Who will win? May it be a good
fight and no cussing please, there may be women listening. I have been
told that the book I was referring to in the 1880s encounter is called
Pearl of Great Price and it is part of a larger book called Doctrine
of Covenants.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 06:12:10 PST
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Dear Humans: After thinking about what I said about Mr. Sheaffer and
Mr. Showen maybe I had better amend that a little. I have had the
opportunity of meeting both of these gentlemen before and they are
are true leaders of their ways of thinking. People do follow them.
You can be sure that after these two discuss a subject no stone
will be unturned to find the truth.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 06:31:33 PST
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Dear People:
Yes Siree bob, here we are starting another week.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 06:33:50 PST
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Dear Folks: Remember today is tuesday and tomorrow is OOBE wednesday.
Same time same space craft.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 06:38:45 PST
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Dear People: I think your making fun of my spelling of the word Forengi.
Maybe I have instulted the Forengi and should beg their forgiveness that
is if they were a real people.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 19:16:55 PST
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Dear Folks: The people from Legart use the word abort to mean, to stop
a mission or a firing of a missle among other things. Legart is a
planet I think in the Libra constellation (if I remember right). It's
about 17 light years away according to our scientist but they (the
space people from Legart) say it is only about 14 light years away.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 19:33:02 PST
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Dear Folks: That should have been insulted.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 19:34:41 PST
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Dear Folks: I have nothing to say and no time to say it in.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 06:18:21 PST
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Dear Folk: Tomorrow is Thankgiving. Have a good one. I'm a genuine
card carrying vegetarian so remember WE TURKEYS SHALL OVERCOME.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 06:20:54 PST
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Dear Folks: If I can get some time maybe I'll try to tell you about
the Mysterious Rock Circles of Mt. Shasta.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 06:22:38 PST
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Dear Folks: Soon I'll try to put down something about Dinosaurs Today.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CONTACT NOTES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 08:03:49 PST
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I have the transcripts from the Pleiades contact.  They are really
hard to read since they are translated from German.  I am really
grateful to Wendell Stevens for his time and trouble in publishing
them in a more readable form.
As far as the UMMO aliens I have not seen reference to them in what I
have read.  Although I think Wendell has published a book on that
contact.
So my suggestions are to contact Meiers at his center in Switzerland.
Or to order Wendells two books.
UFO Contact from Planet UMNO Vol 1 & 2 which contain halftones, sketches,
and diagrams.  I would write first to see if he still has any,

UFO Photo Archives,  P.O.  Box 17206, Tucson,  Az.  85710,  USA

I think Meiers group is called The Samjase Silver Star Center in
Switzerland.  I have seen the address but do not have it available
right now.

I hope this helps.

Don Showen
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 19:10:30 PST
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Dear Folks: It's OOBE wednnesday and I'm about to blast off. I have
just been told by Sharula through her newsletter that during the 25th
of Nov. (thanksgiving night) is the proper time to watch the running
of the River STYX in the Great Pyramid of Egypt. I'll be going there
tomorrow night by OOBE. Come along if your like.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
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[e-mail] writes:
>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little doubt
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!
>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Plains, are evidence of the
>existence of extraterrestrial life.
Not to mention the Great Wall of China, the Golden Gate Bridge, Ayers Rock,
Disneyland, Stonehenge, Hyde Park and the Dallas School Book Depository.

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From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
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[e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>Oh really?  While I was reading a book by Martin Gardner about this
>sort of stuff, he was talking about some other book which claimed more
>or less what you say.  Mr. Gardner made a remark which I thought was
>fairly interesting.  He said (more or less) "This person has no difficultly
>believing that Stonehenge was built by people, or that Hadrians wall was,
>or the castles of England.  Oddly enough all these structures were built
>by white people.  Of course, if Africans or Mexicans have huge
>constructions in their countries it must be because extra-terrestrials
>helped them.  Dark skinned people couldn't possibly do it by themselves."

>Why are the pyramids and Nazca lines evidence for ETs?

>C Frog
Indeed. As the Book of the SubGenius tells us about the Xists:

  These benign space monsters have walked among us throughout history,
  investigating and sometimes resisting the omnipervasive presence of JHVH-1
  and His Minions (of whom they themselves number!). The extinction of the
  dinosaurs, the rise and "fall" of Atlantis shortly thereafter, the
  erection of the Pyramids, Stonehenge and other monuments which *no
  slopeheads alone could possibly build*, all these events and more are so
  inextricably interwoven with the invisible background wars between the
  Xists, JHVH-1, and the Elder Gods, that all the "Ancient Astronaut"
  fossils in the world offer only the barest of clues.

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From: [e-mail] (Glenn Durden)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Date: 26 Nov 1992 14:47:04 +1100
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NNTP-Posting-Host: werple.apana.org.au

[e-mail] writes:


>Subject: Lone Pine Pyramid.
>Part 3.
[loads of garbage deleted]
>  I will be glad to tell or show anyone who is interested in the pyramid where
>it is as long as they can prove to me that they are part of the group that
>built it

So let me get this straight...   if they can prove they built it, you'll kindly
show them where it is.
 Wouldnt they know already????

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Send Kibo pelts to Nike
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Kibo
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 04:20:08 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Ternes) writes:
>
>Are kibos cool grey before or after they're waxed?

I thought "cool grey" was what Doritos tasted like on other planets.

Or was that the Celestial Seasonings tea with the saucer people on the box?

                                -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Will irreversibility permit quantum connection communication?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>so that the quantum connection signal induced by absorption at the first
>polarizinf bean splitter in the transmitter Mach-Zehnder interferometer
>appears to be
>
>p(e'+') - p(0'-') = sin2@[|<ae+|x>||<x|ao+>|cos(666+phi-arg<ae+|x>-arg<x|ao+>)

OH NO!!!!  HE'S GOT A POLARIZINF BEAN SPLITTER!!!!  KEEP THAT AWAY FROM
MY GARBANZO SALAD!!!!

Have you been holding your head in one of those space-inverted tetrion
beams at the "Star Trek: Federation Science" museum exhibit again?
Or maybe you're "Bigfootf"'s secret love child?

                            -- K.

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 92 10:14:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>>> [e-mail] writes:
>>> The short ones with pointy little red caps?
>>
>>Grow up, man.  There are creatures we know nothing of.  It makes perfect sense
>>to believe that once, thousandsof years ago, a whole race descendedto escape
>>natural disasters such as a flood (the great flood as described in the bible?)
>>and remain there.  You shouldn't dismiss this possibillity so easily.  We're
>>not talking about Hobbits here but the possibillity of a whole race, possibly
>>even new species existing that we still know nothing of.
>>
>>
> Oh, you mean they wear GREEN caps.  Ohhhh......
> Look, the whole Hollow Earth theory is completely ludicrous.  If
> indeed the Earth is hollow, then how do you explain its gravitational
> activity, calculated to several dozen decimal places with several
> dozen objects?  We can measure the force of gravity and from that
> we can get the mass of the Earth.  If the Earth is hollow, then
> the force of gravity would be less...but it isn't, so it ain't.
> Hate to be the shriveled carrot under your peach cobbler, but the
> world ain't hollow and there ain't nobody inside.
>>

No one said the Earth is hollow.  That would be a ludicrous thing to suggest
because we know it to be untrue.  What I was really suggesting was that there
is a possibility that there are undiscovered species on this planet, maybe even
ancestors to Homo Sapiens that have evolved differently through enviromental
change.  There's no reason at all why there couldn't be a thousand species of
animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's surface.




>>
>>>
>>>>21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great Pyramid
>>>>of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
>>>
>>> No, you are WRONG on this one John.  Aldeberon got nuked by the Death Star, I
>>> saw it happen.
>>>
>>
>>existence of extraterrestrial life.
>
> No, no no no no no no no.  The Pyramids in Egypt are evidence of the
> ingenuity and patience of the Ancient Egyptians (as well as their
> THRIVING slave labor trade), and the Nazca Lines are evidence of the
> religious devotion of the natives living there.  These are not
> mysteries, they are anthropological truths, found through decades
> (and, in the case of the Pyramids, centuries) of research and
> extrapolation.
>

I explained the pyramid thing to a guy last night, well partly at least.  I
don't have the time to put a full and detailed posting on the subject and
frankly I wouldn't anyway because you never know who's reading.
    The pyramids were built by aliens aided by the Egyptians, using sound to
construct them.
    The Nazca lines  were ORIGINALLY runways for UFOs.  After alien activity
and research in the area stopped the Nazca indians added to the lines creating
pictures in the plains.  They even learned how to fly from the aliens allowing
them to see their work.




>     Jason
>
>
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Pyramids
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 11:10:00 GMT
Lines: 7


The pyramids were not built by slaves, but by paid workers. The construction
is well documented and understood. No aliens are mentioned.
                                                                Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CONTACT NOTES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 92 01:19:17 MST
Distribution: world
Organization: Not an Organization
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
> Does anyone have information about transcripts from the teachings of the
> Pleiadians to Billy Miejer? There are thousands of pages covering all
> branches of science.
>
> There are also over 800 pages of transcripts from UMMO Aliens in France.
> I am interested in examining the contents of these Alien transcripts.
> Thanks.

I'd like to see something like this too, though probably not all of the
800 pages! Someone could weed through it and pull out interesting pieces,
as long as they don't become read out of context.  A 'summary' is a bit
too subjective, because many people might read the transcripts a different
way.

>  . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

--
%"Vhuuut, you donna' like'a my zooop?"-Fred Flintstone, impersonating a chef
% kellY Martin  UUCP:[e-mail]  (1:342/53.5@fidonet)

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From: [e-mail] (Lauren Podolak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Space Craft From Oth
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 19:31:00 PDT
Organization: Mechanic: The Usenet<->Fidonet Gateway oF St. Pete Florida
Lines: 19

WD>  4 light years an hour, hmmm that works out to Warp 32.73 according to
WD>my formula.  Captain Kirk and Scotty must be green with envy...

Actually the method given for Warp calculations vis-a-vis StarTrek is
not valid since Capt Kirk and crew frequently went as far away as 15,000
lightyears which would have taken more than 5 years at warp 10.....

an exponential series would probably work better, like ( x ! )....

Lauren
___
 X OLX 2.1 TD X Who said that Interstellar Empires don't exit?

--
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From: [e-mail] (Lauren Podolak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re^2: alien info.wan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 19:36:02 PDT
Organization: Mechanic: The Usenet<->Fidonet Gateway oF St. Pete Florida
Lines: 17

RB>>Is it a ufology requirement that one know nothing of elementary
RB>astronomy?

RB>Is it an astronomy requirement that one be a pompous ass?

Dont you think though that people who insist on referring to
constellations as actual coordinated stellar systems as being
uninformed?
___
 X OLX 2.1 TD X Unable to locate Coca Cola -- Operator Halted!

--
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Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between USENET & FIdonet.
      For information write to [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO March on Washington
Date: 26 Nov 1992 16:07:09 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


This is for real - folks!
______________________________________________________________________________

                             OPERATION RIGHT TO KNOW

               Send a message to Congress & the White House to end
             Disinformation & Secrecy regarding the U.S. Government's
                       Contact with Off-World Civilizations

Documented Evidence of the reality of UFOs is overwhelming, including evidence
the U.S. military retrieved a crashed flying saucer in New Mexico in 1947. Our
Government's policy of withholding and confusing the facts of extraterrestrial
contact is WRONG and MUST END.

We demand full disclosure of government UFO secrets and an open, public inquiry
into the phenomena. We believe that the government's policy of tightly
restricting UFO data, however well-intentioned it originally may have been,
causes far more harm than simply telling the truth.

                         DEMONSTRATION, MARCH & RALLY

            Date:    July 5, 1993, Monday (a Federal holiday)
            Time:    Afternoon
            Place:   Whlte House sidewalk
                     Rally at the Ellipse

                     Sponsored by: Operation Right to Know

Join Operation Right To Know and recieve our 8 page newsletter that keeps our
membership informed as to our activities.  The membership fee is $15.00 to be
sent to Operation Riqht To Know at P.O. Box 2911, Hyattsville, MD, 20784. For
more information call or write Ed Komarek at Rt. 3 Box 1076, Thomasville, CA,
31792, Phone [phone], or Elaine Douglass at 1801 Clydesdale, Suite 501
Washington, DC, 20009.

______________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Space Craft From Oth
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 16:20:41 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lauren Podolak) writes:
>WD>  4 light years an hour, hmmm that works out to Warp 32.73 according to
>WD>my formula.  Captain Kirk and Scotty must be green with envy...
>
>Actually the method given for Warp calculations vis-a-vis StarTrek is
>not valid since Capt Kirk and crew frequently went as far away as 15,000
>lightyears which would have taken more than 5 years at warp 10.....
>
>an exponential series would probably work better, like ( x ! )....

Factorials are not exponential by the usual usage of the word, that is, they
are not power series of any base. And factorials grow much faster.

>Lauren
>Internet: [e-mail]
>UUCP:     ...!myrddin!tct!mechanic!Lauren.Podolak
>Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between USENET & FIdonet.
>      For information write to [e-mail]
>

Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: hypnosis experimentation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 16:27:40 GMT
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Spears) writes:
>RP>Subjects were flashed (I assume slides) images of the back of a car.
>  >The license plates were unreadable. It seems that the subjects would
>  >recall a license number under hypnosis. I do not recall if it was some
>  >or all. The conclusion I recall was that they would come up with the
>  >numbers in order to please the hypnotist.
>
>RP>I am not trying to be vague, this is what I remember.
>
>Without know precisely how the questions were phrased, though, it would
>be hard to take those results as conclusive of anything.  Exact wording
>can make a big difference - if they asked "leading" questions, the
>answers may well have been meaningless.

More to the point, have not the results of hypnosis been assumed accurate,
with no basis? It seems that the accuracy could be quite easily tested,
by experiments like the one above.

One of these days I will see if I can look this up.

>While I've never used hypnosis in connection with alien abductions (and
>therefore can't say much on the validity of implanting memories of
>such), I've noticed that people do occasionally take "past life
>regressions" as experiences that have truly happened, i.e. the
>regression incorporated into memory as an actual event.  Not too often,
>though, and it's not something I've really documented.

I just read a post in sci-skeptic where the poster was talking about
reincarnation and past lives. It seems many do believe that these things
are real. If they are planted memories essentially no different from
actual memories, then they would indeed seem real. Not that I am clear
on what the difference(s) between real and planted memories are.

> * OLX 2.1 TD * That is not dead which can eternal lie...
> * Origin: THE CITY LIGHTS <612-633-1366> <MULTINODE> <14.4> (1:282/108)


Rich

[e-mail]


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12949 alt.alien.visitors:11380 sci.skeptic:34860
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 92 16:13:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 32

Subject: Two Year Old.
  Well we've been talking about weird babies. Now let us  progress to a weird
two year old.
  We have a young lady who thinks she is the present day living breathing
personification of a movie star that died on Oct. 6th 1989. Her name is
Belinda Condon. Incredibly, she has the same flashing eyes as Bette Davis.
She even speaks the motion picture star's most famous lines spontaneously,
although she has only just begun to talk.
  "She grabs at cigarettes and holds them, sniffing at the smoke like she
loves it," said the child's mother, Sue Condon of Lexington, Ky. USA.  Bette
Davis was a chain smoker and our little Belinda seems to be as crazy about
cigarettes as she was.
  Once she looked around our living room and said, "What a dump, " just like
that line from the Bette Davis movie. She likes to play dress up and wear
hats with veils and clunky high heels. And she's always walking around with
her hands in the back pockets of her jeans, her head thrown back just like
the famous star.
  Sue and her husband Buddy say their daughter has never seen a Bette Davis
movie and has never even heard the star talked about. Yet her uncanny
resemblance to the actress is so noticeable that strangers always remark on
it.
  The Condons say their daughter -who usually speaks just a few baby
words-ocasionally breaks into lines from Davis movies.
  Once, she awoke from a nap, stood up in her crib and said, "Oh Jerry, we
have the stars, let's not ask for the moon"- famous words Davis spoke in her
movie, Now, Voyager.
  Mostly it's Belinda's eyes that really startle people. They are exactly like
Bette Davis' eyes.  They are enormous and they protrude slightly and she
uses them very
day she will be just as famous.
  This is your truly, (J W) speaking now. What do you think?
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12950 alt.alien.visitors:11381
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 92 10:21:07 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 39

Subject: The Mysterious Mt. Shasta Rock Circles.
  A few years back I read a book that talked about the fact that scientists
have found some circles on the sides of Mt. Shasta that nobody up till then
could figure out. This area is on the north side of Mt. Shasta a certain
distance from the top of the mountain. They appear as round areas made from
rock, say about 30 feet across, if I remember right. They look like a rock
wall just near the surface and they extend down into the ground. Inside of
these areas is a layer of large stome then small stone and then soil. There
are walk areas between the circles.  I have seen pictures of these circles
on some shots taken of the mountain taken by high altitude air craft and
these are in the book. The book is called Mount Shasta, Home of the Ancients
Edited by Bruce Walton, Health Research PO Box, 70, Mokelumme Hill Calif.
95245.  I don't know whether that address is still good or not. I bought my
book at the San Jose Book Shop. 1231 Kentwood Ave. San Jose, Calif.
408-446-0590.
 It also states that a psychic person contacted some of the middle sized
people who are in the mountain (not the White Robed Men or the little people
but the middle sized people, maybe 3.5 feet tall). These people said that
before the white people came to this country they built these rock circles.
They built them to be gardens that are protected by rocks so that they could
grown their vegetables and other things and the brush and trees wouldn't
crowd in on their plants. The circles are connected by walk paths made of
stone. Now that the white man (and I, JW am a white man with a little bit of
American Indian blood in me) has been on the mountain they no longer take
care of the gardens but only come out ever so often each year during some of
their ceremonies.
  I made a trip into the area looking for these circles one time during the
Harmonic Convergence but didn't locate them. I believe that if a person
would go to the National Geological Survey in Menlo Park, Calif. and get the
photographs of the area then he or she could find them.
  Let me know if you find them.
 I once contacted the author Mr. Bruce Walton and asked him some questions
about the mountain and he said that he didn't believe any of the stories in
the book, he just edited the stories and since that time he had become a
born again christian (like ex-president Jimmy Carter) and is no longer
interest in Mt. Shasta.
John Winston.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12951 alt.alien.visitors:11382 sci.skeptic:34862
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bcarh1eb!zenith89
From: [e-mail] (Chris VanFleet)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd., Ottawa, CANADA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 92 18:50:37 GMT
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Two Year Old.
>  Well we've been talking about weird babies. Now let us  progress to a weird
>two year old.
>  We have a young lady who thinks she is the present day living breathing
>personification of a movie star that died on Oct. 6th 1989. Her name is
>Belinda Condon. Incredibly, she has the same flashing eyes as Bette Davis.
> ...(deleted)...
> This is your truly, (J W) speaking now. What do you think?
>John Winston.

Which tabloid newspaper did you copy from this time John?  ...CPV
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: CONTACT NOTES
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 18:03:44 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>Does anyone have information about transcripts from the teachings of the
>Pleiadians to Billy Miejer? There are thousands of pages covering all
>branches of science.
>
>There are also over 800 pages of transcripts from UMMO Aliens in France.
>I am interested in examining the contents of these Alien transcripts.
>Thanks.
>
>---
> . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $
>
Just a word of advice - UMMO is largely held to be a hoax of some
magnitude. I suggest you read "Revelation" by Jacques Vallee, for
starters.



--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12952 alt.alien.visitors:11384 sci.skeptic:34865
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Dayy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 92 19:07:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Humans: After thinking about what I said about Mr. Sheaffer and
> Mr. Showen maybe I had better amend that a little. I have had the
> opportunity of meeting both of these gentlemen before and they are
> are true leaders of their ways of thinking. People do follow them.
> You can be sure that after these two discuss a subject no stone
> will be unturned to find the truth.
> John Winston


WINSTON!  Is there no end to your impertinence?  Nobody cares about your
totally sad dribblings...why don't you do something constructive with
your imagination?  Whycan't you keep it to yourself?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12953 alt.alien.visitors:11385 sci.skeptic:34866
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 92 20:06:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little
doubt
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!

THERE IS NO DOUBT.


>>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Pl
ains, are evidence of the
>>existence of extraterrestrial life.
> Not to mention the Great Wall of China, the Golden Gate Bridge, Ayers Rock,
> Disneyland, Stonehenge, Hyde Park and the Dallas School Book Depository.


I'll tell you one thing, your posting certainly doesn't prove the existence of
intelligent life.
    I will not disclose my full knowledge on the net.
    Why don't you e-mail me and I might fill you in.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12954 alt.alien.visitors:11386 alt.religion.kibology:4894
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!gatech!concert!samba!sunSITE!jem
From: [e-mail] (Jonathan Magid)
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunsite.unc.edu
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 21:37:03 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: Can anyone enlighten me on the proper spelling of the
>word Forengi, the type of people who are shown on Star Trek the Next
>Generation who are traders. For some reason or another when I hear the
>comment from the Kiboites I think of these type people.
>John Winston.

As far as I know, Kibo is the only type person around here...

I don't watch a lot of star trek, but I think the Forengi are more
of trader/peddler people than font designers.

jem.
--
Jonathan Magid     [e-mail]       sunSITE Administrator
Virtual pizza Delivery (tm)::faxed in 30 cycles or less or you get it
----------------------------------------FREE!!!-----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Swamp Gas Journal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: A new issue of the SGJ is posted
Keywords: UFO, ufozine, crop circles, skeptic, believers
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: ccu.umanitoba.ca
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 21:51:55 GMT
Lines: 788


Volume 6               The SWAMP GAS JOURNAL            ISSN 0707-7106
Number 3               *********************            November 1992

   This is the second issue of the SGJ which will be available in both
online and hardcopy format.  The response to the last issue was
overwhelming, to say the least.  It seems that there is a need for an
electronic version of this zine, so from now on, as long as is
feasible, the SGJ will be available via email.  However, photos or
graphics pages will not be included in the electronic version; they
will be available in hardcopy only.  (No, I do NOT want to hear about
.gif and .pif files!)

               UFOs, LITs, LATERs, BOLs and WYSIWYG

   With regard to those pesky flying things, a recent story in TIME
magazine (August 31, 1992, p.44) reported that: "UFO sightings are
down, and the saucer spotters are getting skeptical.  What on earth is
going on?"
   This was most interesting, especially to ufologists who tabulate UFO
activity.  The UFOROM Canadian UFO Survey, for example, found that
numbers of UFO reports increased during the past two years.  Similarly,
Paul Ferrughelli's annual report on American cases also found an
increase.  What HAS decreased is the media's interest in carrying
stories about UFOs.  This is not suprising, since the ridicule curtain
(as named by Allen Hynek) is still in effect.  Furthermore, the vocal
efforts of CSICOP and independent skeptics' groups (that have
absolutely NOTHING to do with CSICOP, obviously) have caused many
editors to think twice before doing an article on paranormal
phenomena. An article by Don Berliner in a recent issue of IUR (Vol.17,
#5, Sept/Oct 1992, pp. 16-18), titled "Why the Press Acts That Way",
enumerates the various reasons why ufology is not taken seriously by
the media.
    The TIME article went on to describe a UFO investigator named
Philip Mantle as one of "a new breed of UFOlogists who do not
believe that UFOs come from outer space."  Where has TIME been all
these years?  They interview New Agers wearing pyramid hats, and
then interview Philip Klass, and they think they have a complete
overview of ufology!
   In terms of sighting numbers, Ferrughelli's latest National Sighting
Yearbook 1991 (60 Allen Drive, Wayne, NJ 07470) lists the
following totals: 1987 - 170; 1988 - 291; 1989 - 268; 1990 - 194;
and 1991 - 201.  Report numbers dropped slightly in the early '90's,
but numbers are still above the 1987 figure.  In Canada, UFOROM's
annual survey actually records many more cases per capita than the USA,
and numbers hover steadily around 175 cases per year.  Where's the drop
in numbers that TIME describes?
   The article points to the Belgium wave, where 2000 sightings were
recorded in 1991, but there have been only 50 in 1992 so far.  In
Britain, the article cites a similar number this year, compared to
hundreds per year in the 1980's.  But any ufologist worth his or her
salt would have been able to explain the mechanics of flaps and waves,
not to mention historical trends.  So, the TIME article is not only
wrong, it's not even well-researched.

                           THE CIRCLE GAME

   Let's talk circles.  For years now, I've been commenting upon the
suspicious similarities between crop circles and classic UFO physical
traces.  I've pointed out that flattened areas of crushed vegetation
have been found WITHOUT associated UFO activity throughout recorded
history.  In Canada, classic UGM cases include Langenburg in 1974 and
Rossburn in 1977, both predating the British wave.  And even Doug and
Dave admitted getting their ideas to make their hoaxes from the Tully
saucer nests in Australia back in 1967.
   Furthermore, I have said all along that the vast majority of crop
circles are likely hoaxes.  My own investigations and research, as well
as consultation with others in this field, suggested that the Meaden
vortex theory was not tenable, nor were theories concerning mating
hedgehogs, lightning and whatever.  My observations were that, although
it is difficult to PROVE a particular site is a hoax, the likelihood of
this being so is very strong.
   In recent issues of circle- and ufozines, some people seem to have
arrived at similar conclusions.  In particular, a recent article in the
AFU (Sweden) Newsletter (No.36, Jan-Dec.1991) by Clas Svahn echoes many
comments that are quietly circulating among cerealogists fearful of
exposing the Emperor's new clothes.  Svahn has visited the British
circle sites several times over the past few years, and his
observations are very interesting.  He says:
   "MONEY has become the number one concern for many of the
circle 'researchers'. Selling dubious books, postcards and other circle
paraphernalia tend to be more important than investigating the real
phenomenon (hopefully, there is one).
   "It is not very reassuring to note that speculations and wishful
thinking are taking more and more space in books and magazines dealing
with the crop circles.  Instead, one would like to see more soberness
and objectivity from the different groups involved."
   In a review of recent books, Svahn notes that all authors:
"treat the phenomenon as if it was 100 percent genuine. Of course, they
acknowledge the Bower and Chorley 'intermezzo', but [none] seem to
realize that today there is no way to distinguish between 'real'
circles and hoaxes ... While the research is getting out of hand, the
researchers become more and more like New Age phophets ..."
   Svahn's article includes personal observations of circle sites, and
commentaries about the actions of specific cerealogists.  His most
poignant comment is emphasized in the original: "Most researchers tend
to hold on to their pet theories without taking others' criticisms
seriously.  During my visits to England - and from the few reports I
have investigated here in Sweden - I HAVE BECOME MORE AND MORE
DISAPPOINTED AND UNCERTAIN OF THERE BEING A REAL PHENOMENON BEHIND THE
CIRCLES."
   Is he alone in his opinions?  Definitely not.  In a major British
circlezine, the CROP WATCHER, editor Paul Fuller has a few biting
comments about the current state of cerealogy.  In CW #12 (July/Aug
1992), Paul writes:
  "Even the paranormally-inclined cerealogists have admitted that 1992
produced fakes galore, with few prepared to stick their necks out and
claim that a single [NB!] British circle qualified as 'genuine'.  In
some ways, this restrained response could be construed as an
over-reaction to last summer's hoax revelations, but in reality the
awful truth has dawned on cerealogists everywhere - that most modern
crop circles really are man-made hoaxes and that if there ever was a
'genuine' phenomenon in the first place it has now been utterly swamped
by a smokescreen of wishful thinking and media-inspired mythology.  Sad
words indeed but a fact which most researchers now seem to be accepting
with some reluctance."
   Paul notes that "leading cerealogists accept that they have
lost the crop circle battle and that it is time to flee the sinking
ship."  He observes that some prominent cerealogists are emigrating to
the USA, possibly for this reason.  In fact, as obvious on a recent TV
episode of Sightings, Colin Andrews is now based in Connecticut.
As for the remaining "meteorologically-caused" circles, Terence Meaden,
that theory's main proponent has now stated that: "Anything other than
a simple circle is definitely a hoax", and he has now restricted the
number of 'genuine circles' to "fewer than a dozen a year".  Paul
further notes: "It remains to be seen whether Meaden's meteorological
theory can survive such trauma."
   Later in the issue, there appears a map of England, showing the
locations of "Known Crop Circle (Groups of) Hoaxes".  I can't reproduce
it here, but to give readers a flavour for what's on it, the
editor notes that "there are so many known hoaxers that we couldn't
squeeze them all in!"  Good old Doug and Dave, who got all the
publicity, are on there wih their small number of formations.
  In North America, arch-skeptic Rob Day has publicly admitted he was
responsible for some of the recent crop circles in Alberta.  A farmhand
who had used a garden tractor to make a UGM was caught by Roy Bauer and
Grant Cameron here in Manitoba.  At least one set of hoaxers has
admitted to making some circles in the American Midwest.  Given the
proliferation of hoaxes and the obvious contamination of crop
circle/UGM data, cerealogists had better take more care to ensure their
investigations are truly objective and unbiased.
  Obviously, though, this caution is not confined to cerealogy.  In no
less a controversial subject as crash/retrievals, Barry Greenwood
defends his publication JUST CAUSE in Number 33 (Sept.1992) of that
zine:
   "Recently, we have received comments from several pro-UFO
readers questioning the relevancy and value of what we have published
in the last couple of years.  We have apparently not been pro-ET enough
... We could very likely double our subscription rolls by reporting
titillating stories of underground alien bases, of simple verbal
accounts claiming knowledge of UFO technology, of what has become so
very trendy now - alien/human SEX!  Actually, it would not be enough to
report such information - we would have to advocate it on a soapbox.
Then, we would likely be invited onto numerous media programs to give
the public what it craves - sensation.
   "As one UFO pundit told us recently, printing sensible information
is not the road to fame and fortune.  Trying to be balanced and careful
seem to be undesireable traits to some.  So be it.  We exist to inform,
not to put on a Wild-West show."
   Howdy, pardners.  Are you cowpokes listening?
   Perhaps the most significant issue here is that all the comments
reprinted here are from zines that are ostensibly "pro" as opposed to
"skeptical" in the CSICOP sense.  Despite repeated claims that ufology
and cerealogy are running rampant without any peer review, there has
always been a great deal of constructive and rational discussion within
the Fortean community. It isn't as common as "Wild-West" shows, but it
IS out there.  I have always advocated an open and non-confrontational
approach to discussions in the fields of so-called "pseudoscience".
Very often, "balanced" forums or debates between skeptics and
"believers" degrade into arguments on semantics or the nature of
science.  Innocent viewers/listeners/observers who are desperate for
understandable information about UFOs only get more confused and
turn back to traditional sources of information - the tabloid media.
  Throughout my 15 years of involvement in Fortean research, I have
always tried to encourage discussion between the two camps of
"believers" and "skeptics".  Usually, I've failed.  Normally,
"believers" consider me to be a skeptic, while ardent skeptics think my
fence-sitting makes me an irrationalist.  I often comment that sitting
on the fence can be very painful, not only from the pickets, but also
because you get things thrown at you from both sides.  The trouble is
that, in my opinion, one cannot be truly impartial and objective unless
meaningful dialogue is shared between opposing parties, and such
dialogue should be solicited or precipitated whenever possible.
   I find it amazing that I am one of a few ufologists who reads the
Skeptical Inquirer, and I am also one of the few skeptics who reads IUR
and the MUFON Journal.  Conferences are a sore point, too.
I received an invitation to the second Las Vegas UFO Conference,
featuring talks by Wendelle Stevens, Jaime Shandera and Stanton
Friedman.  At a cost of about $500 (CDN), I couldn't attend.
CSICOP conferences are similar in format; both factions usually feature
presentations of "the converted preaching to the converted".  The two
groups meet with cross-purposes, and no useful dialogue talks place.
But can you imagine a joint CSICOP/MUFON meeting?  I can't, either.
   If such a meeting were to take place, it would likely degenerate
into a shouting match, and possibly a barroom brawl.  The situation
would be similar to a radio debate for which I was invited to be the
spokesman for the "pro" side of UFOs, crop circles, etc.  My opponent
was a member of a regional skeptics' group (which had ABSOLUTELY
nothing to do with CSICOP, of course).  I was astounded at the vigour
with which I was verbally attacked.  I was taken aback when my opponent
read from a transcript of a previous interview I had given, in order to
show how irrationalists such as myself contradict ourselves at every
opportunity.  After listening intently, I pointed out that nothing in
my statement was contradictory, and he grudgingly agreed, having been
caught in his own trap.  After all, I sometimes never contradict
myself in the course of a discussion.
   The unfortunate part of the "debate" was that because there was a
constant stream of offensive and defensive verbiage flowing, only three
telephone calls from listeners were taken.  Even the radio host
admitted that he was completely confused by the semantic arguments.
Listeners were wanting to get good information about sensational
subjects, but were completely turned off by the presentation.
   How did I advocate the "pro" side?  I didn't, deliberately.  I had
explained that I represented UFOROM and had been investigating UFOs and
related phenomena for about 15 years.  At no time did I claim that the
aliens were here, raping our Streibers and stealing our children.  I
spoke from experience, describing facts without any deliberate
interpretation.  On crop circles, my opponent insisted they were all
caused by hoaxers.  I pointed out that that was a definite possibility,
but we had only caught one hoaxer in Canada in three years.
Furthermore, there still exists a possibility that winds can make SOME
crop circles.  I may not think much of Meaden's theory, but many
scientists (defined variously) think it may have some merit.  My opponent
insisted that these were trivial arguments, and that his view was
completely correct.  The skeptical view is that since hoaxers are the
most PROBABLE explanation, then that is the CORRECT explanation.  My
caution is that there are so many categories and kinds of UGMs, a
blanket statement of any kind is improper.  There ARE cases which are
caused by hedgehogs, just as some are caused by hoaxers.

                            ABDUCTIONS?

   A similar hassle would be created for an all-sides meeting to
discuss UFO abductions.  In one corner would be skeptics such as Robert
Sheaffer and Philip Klass (author of "UFO Abductions - A Dangerous
Game").  In the other corner would be researchers such as John Mack,
David Gotlib and, of course, Budd Hopkins.  Both sides would need to
put their dukes up.  The skeptical standpoint is that abductions do not
take place, and the experiences are little more than dreams or
hallucinations fueled by the popular media.  The "pro" UFO standpoint,
which is the one adopted by most UFO buffs and proclaimed at UFO
conferences, is that the aliens are abducting us for nefarious or
possibly benevolent reasons.  But Mack and Gotlib are clinicians who
are engaged in the treatment and counseling of individuals who appear
to have had traumatic experiences that are represented by images of
aliens.  Thousands of such cases DO exist; this is not the issue.  WHY
people are reporting the experiences is the real issue.  Imagination
fueled by tabloid tales?  Certainly some cases are, but even if this is
so, there is still the problem of determining why such cases are
multiplying.  What is the mechanism responsible?  Why would people
unconsciously generate such experiences and hold to them so intensely?
There is no other comparable experience in the history of psychology or
sociology that has grabbed such a foothold in the public mind.  So, the
problem is NOT to determine if aliens are abducting humans, but rather
to determine WHY the cases exist at all, and to understand the
psychological/sociological mechanisms behind the stories, IF there is
no physical or paraphysical cause.

                               BOO!

   Fear-mongering.  That's what discussions about cattle mutilations
and satanism are said to be.  I was accused of being a fear-mongerer
for simply describing a meeting I had attended.
   Now, I really didn't want to get into this argument in the SGJ, but
it's relevant to this discussion.  In the course of my investigations
into Fortean phenomena, I have been asked to look into a few mute cases
here in Manitoba.  None were extremely interesting.  One carcass I
examined near Teulon in 1977 was badly picked over by the time I got to
the scene, and I never did get a chance to see the others.  I have
spoken to various veterinarians, and opinion seemed to vary.  At the
time, I heard a number of bizarre anecdotes, including one about a
perfectly square patch of hide removed from a carcass found in Alberta
in the 1970's.
   Jerry Clark of CUFOS recently wrote a relevant editorial for IUR
which related his views on mutes.  He pointed out that the
link between UFOs and mutes was virtually non-existent, somewhat
contradicting Linda Howe's stance.  (Stigmatist Tom Adams also supports
the UFO link).  A popular book by Daniel Kagan, titled Mute Evidence, is
often recommended by debunkers.  Kagan spent some time talking with a
number of vets and government officials, and came to the conclusion
that mutes were a non-issue.  Mute proponents, however, have pointed
out that Kagan's credentials and expertise are somewhat dubious,
implying he was not a credible authority and his conclusions were
unjustified.
   In the mid-1970's, mute cases were popping up everywhere.  Tommy Roy
Blann (does anybody know where he is these days?) even prepared a
confidential report for RCMP in Alberta, in which he provided them with
background information for their investigations into Canadian cases.
Tommy was pro-UFO, and the RCMP at the time were seriously considering
the possibility that satanic cults were involved.  In 1992, more mutes
were reported in Alberta, but this time, newspaper accounts have the
RCMP denying any satanic links.
   Recently, I had been invited to contact individuals in the employ of
both civic and provincial family services, because of my involvement in
local UFO cases.  It seems that these individuals have encountered, in
their opinions, clear cases of ritual or satanic abuse in the course of
their work.  They had heard of the alleged connection between child
abuse and UFO abductions, and wanted my opinion.  They explained that
they had encountered "many cases" of ritual abuse, but that it was very
difficult to gather enough evidence that would be accepable in a court
of law.  That is why, they suggested, debunkers' arguments that there
has never been any proof of ritual abuse or satanic cult activity are
technically correct, yet clinically false.
   The problem is that, by strict definitions of proof and
falsifiability employed by debunkers in their analyses of unusual
phenomena, sociological and psychological phenomena sometimes fall
outside the definitions.  It has been pointed out by other writers that
Freudian psychology and stock market analyses both fail in tests of
"scientific" definitions because they rely a great deal upon
interpretation and subjective opinions on the part of researchers in
those fields.  So, in terms of "rigourous" proof, cases of ritual abuse
may be factual according to social workers and criminologists, but are
spurious and unsubstantiated to scientific objectivists.
   The day after I met with the individuals from family services and
the social agencies, I was involved in a public debate on UFOs and
related matters.  Hence, when I was asked if satanic cults had anything
to do with cattle mutilations, I replied that there might
be some connection.  I was immediately branded a "fearmonger" by my
opponent, who obviously had never discussed the matter with social
workers and who probably would never do so.  In no way was I trying to
scare the audience with gruesome tales of satanists killing cattle and
drinking blood; I only replied to the question with information I had
received the day before.  It is quite true that many social caseworkers
believe that ritual abuse exists in our society.  Indeed, my cynical
nature makes me fairly certain that "sick" people with an affinity for
such activity live in our midst.
   The complexity of the issue is best described in a new book by David
K. Sakheim and Susan E. Devine, titled: Out of Darkness - Exploring
Satanism and Ritual Abuse (Lexington [MacMillan], 1992).  Sakheim and
Devine present a survey of various views on the subject, written by
social workers, police, psychologists and victims.  This is about as
balanced of a work as I have ever seen.  The various authors caution
that the sensationalist version of rampant satanism is clearly fiction,
but note that there is some evidence that ritualistic acts do occur in
our society.  The problem of finding "conclusive proof" is a major
concern, and obviously parallels ufology in this regard.  In fact, UFO
abductions are mentioned several times in the the book, in the context
of evidence for alleged child abuse and screen memories.  Perhaps the
most revealing chapter is about dealing with "nihilists" - those who
deny that such phenomena exist at all.  Indeed, the infamous SKEPTICAL
INQUIRER article on the non-existence of satanism is examined and
refuted.
   Another complication is the creation of a new skeptical group,
called the False Memory Syndrome Association (3508 Market St., Suite
128, Philadelphia, PA 19104).  The executive director of the group, Dr.
Pamela Freyd, is sending reams of information to social workers
involved in abuse cases, in an effort to stop proliferation of the
acceptance of "remembered memories" such as child abuse, ritual abuse
and, yes, UFO abductions.  Freyd points out that in many cases where an
adult "remembers" early abuse, investigation shows that no such events
had ever occurred.  Cynical case workers are quick to point out that
the FMS group includes many people who have had work published by
Prometheus Books, and are therefore CSICOP debunkers at heart.
However, the FMS group's warnings should be heeded.  The lesson is
there, too, for researchers involved with UFO abductions.
   If debunkers wish to get into long diatribes with ritual abuse
investigators, arguing about the existence of cultists, let them do so.
It is beyond the abilities of most UFO/mute/trace investigators to
properly deal with this subject.  Rationally, it would seem that
ufologists should remain apprised of the subject, but refer incidents
to more appropriately-trained individuals.  This material is clearly
out of the league of most UFO buffs, and should stay there.

                          INSOLUBLE MISERIES

   By now, many of you will have seen my appearance as a "U.F.O.
Researcher" on the Unsolved Mysteries segment aired on November 4th,
1992.  The segment concerned the strange story of Stefan Michalak, who
claimed he was injured by an encounter with a saucer-shaped craft in
May, 1967.
   Long ignored by most ufologists, the case may very well be one of
the best on record. According to his story, Michalak was doing some amateur
prospecting near the resort town of Falcon Lake, Manitoba, Canada,
examining the many rock outcroppings for signs of quartz.  The area is
part of the Canadian Shield, quite rugged and covered with evergreens.
Numerous lakes and swamps exist there, and the forests are protected by
Federal and Provincial programs.
   Around noon, Michalak heard the sounds of agitated geese on a pond
below his perch on a rocky plateau.  He looked up to see two red
cigar-shaped objects flying slowly through the sky.  One descended
toward him, and appeared to land about 150 feet away in a clearing.
After it landed, it appeared to change colour from red to orange to
silver, as it "cooled down".  It was now a classic flying saucer, about
35-40 feet in diameter, with a dome on its upper surface.  The other
object in the sky flew away.
   Over the next hour, Michalak observed the object from a hiding spot
behind a large rock formation.  He sketched the object and puzzled over
its nature.  He couldn't see any markings on the side, and he didn't
believe in "little green men" at the time.  He concluded it was an
experimental American aircraft which had landed for repairs.  His
theory seemed correct when he heard some high-pitched voices coming
from the craft.  A door opened in its side, and brilliant purple lights
flooded out of the portal.
   He decided to sarcastically ask the Americans if they needed help
fixing their ship, so he cautiously walked toward the vehicle and
shouted his offer for assistance.  The voices ceased abruptly.  Edging
closer, he reached the side of the craft and poked his head into the
opening.  He noticed that its walls were about eight inches thick, and
had a honeycombed appearance.  Inside the ship, he could see what he
described as a myriad of small flashing lights, like those on a
computer panel.  Stepping back, he found that when he touched the side
of the craft with his rubberized work glove, the glove had melted from
intense heat.
   Suddenly, the door closed and the craft rotated counterclockwise.
In front of him was some sort of "exhaust" grille.  A blast of hot gas
shot out of the grille, striking him in the chest and knocking him on
his back.  His shirt was set on fire, and he struggled to remove it.
The craft quickly ascended and flew out of sight.
   As the Unsolved Mysteries segment showed, a dazed Michalak staggered
back to civilization with his fantastic story.  The story of the
investigation is itself a fantastic tale.  Michalak was
beleaguered by reporters, UFO buffs, loonies and other characters all
wanting the REAL story or to give him their own advice on how to deal
with the aliens.
   Much has been published about the Michalak case, some of it
inaccurate and contrived.  An excellent series of articles had appeared
in Canadian UFO Report in the late 1960's and early 1970's, but it did
not receive much attention outside of Canada.  After I had
reopened the case files in the late 1970's, I wrote a series of
articles about it for FLYING SAUCER REVIEW, whose editors were
astounded that a full report on the case had never seen international
print before.  Yet, I have found the Michalak case recounted in various
versions in many books and zines, often repeating claims of radiation
sickness and alien death rays.
   I had re-opened the case because the original team of investigators
had broken up, and the case files were unavailable.  I re-interviewed
Michalak and his family, and tracked down several hundred pages of
government documents about the case.  Dr. Berthold Schwarz was
invaluable in his assistance in tracking down much of the information,
especially the medical reports.
   The case had been investigated by the RCMP, RCAF, USAF and Edward
Condon's Colorado UFO Project (which listed it as "Case 22":
unexplained).  The incident had been debated several times in the
Canadian House of Commons because the public wanted to know what the
government had learned about the injury to a Canadian citizen.  An
official announcement was made that the files would never be made
public because of a danger to "the public interest".
   This, of course, fueled the belief that the craft had been an alien
spaceship.  The government was obviously covering up the affair, and
the whole thing smacked of conspiracy.  It didn't help when a UFO buff
asked the Mayo Clinic for Michalak's medical records, and the response
was that Michalak had never been there.  Of course, Michalak had the
bills to prove his stay there had been real.
   Another often-repeated story is that Michalak had some sort of
radiation sickness or had radiation burns.  This isn't supported by the
medical reports.  If the pattern of burns on his abdomen was caused by
radiation, he would have had many other symptoms of this.  The pattern
was considered by dermatologists to have been caused by chemicals, more
like an actual exhaust such as Michalak had described.  Another story
in circulation (particularly in the four-volume set of UFO books by
Yves Naud) is that Michalak was suffereing from impurities in his
blood, brought on by the UFO's radiative effects.  Again, this is not
supported by the medical evidence.  In fact, it is often repeated that
Michalak lost a great deal of weight and that his lymphocyte count was
reduced, more symptoms of radiation poisoning.  The trouble is that
Michalak had not been to a doctor for many months before his experience,
and there were no records of his pre-experience weight or blood count
available for comparison.  Michalak believed that he had lost weight
the same way we all think we might have lost weight - he guessed and
looked at his own bathroom scale.  Considering he had severe nausea and
vomiting, this wouldn't be too unusual.  As a matter of fact, this is
more evidence in support of his having ingested a chemical mixture of
gases.
   Still, we're left with a curious case.  Physiological and physical
effects, an unchanging story over 25 years, and yet there are no
definite answers to what happened to Michalak at Falcon Lake in 1967.
If it was a hoax (and psychological testing suggests that Michalak
didn't do it), then it is certainly one of the best on record.  Why
would a hoaxer physically harm himself and put up with 25 years of
ridicule by making up a saucer story?  Publicity?  No.  The Michalaks
shy away from publicity.  Money?  No.  The Michalaks haven't made a
bankroll from the experience, as some might claim.  Notoriety?  No.  In
fact, the Michalaks have threatened to take action against some people
mentioning the case in public because they just want to be left alone.

             ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND IN THE CIRCLE GAME

   As mentioned earlier, Paul Fuller's recent editorial in the CROP
WATCHER included a very cynical survey of British cereaology, pointing
out that the "experts" were backpedalling on how many of their "real"
formations had been created by hoaxers.  During the preparation of this
issue of the SGJ, another issue of the CROP WATCHER was received, with
even more goodies.
   Issue 13 of the CROP WATCHER (3 Selbourne Court, Tavistock Close,
ROMSEY, Hampshire  SO51 7TY) includes another editorial in which Paul
shows that vortex theorists now tend to believe that Doug and Dave were
responsible for most of the early British circles during 1978 and 1991,
as they had claimed.  Furthermore, Doug and Dave are publishing a book
about their hoaxing career, which will show in no uncertain terms how
silly the crop circle "experts" have been.  Paul laments:

"Sadly, our attempts to uncover the truth simply met with insults and
riducule by some of the other people who have since made six-figure
sums of money by promoting themselves and Doug and Daves' hoaxes ... It
is sad to see [ufology and cereaology] desecrated by a small group of
stubborn, deceitful people who refused to listen to BUFORA's findings
and who instead went out of their way to suppress evidence for more
mundane explanations ... UFOlogy's name will be dragged through the mud
yet again because these stupid, egotistical idiots decided that it
didn't really matter what created the circles as long as they were the
researchers most closely associated with the phenomenon by the public."

And those are his kinder remarks.  A few pages later, Paul reviews Pat
Delgado's latest crop circle book: CROP CIRCLES - CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE?.
In his review, Paul notes instance after instance of Delgado's
hyping of a formation as "real", when it had been shown to be a hoax by
other researchers.  Even the non-existence of the infamous Highland,
Kansas, formation in 1991, (claimed by Linda Howe to have been covered
up by the military), and long since shown to have never existed, is
ignored by Delgado, who apparently includes it as a "real" site.
   In short, the issue is chock full of revelations about crop circle
hoaxing, while at the same time Paul lauds the meteorological vortex
hypothesis.  [Sorry, Paul, I don't see the evidence for vortex-created
circles to be any more solid than the evidence for alien-created
circles.]  But the commentary and discussion of cerealogists caught
with their pants down makes the zine a must-read.  Ufologists and
cerealogists should pay heed to this zine in order to get accurate info
on what is really occurring in the field (pun).  And debunkers - get
this zine because it deals with the issue and does your work for you
much better than the minimal and trivial coverage in the SKEPTICAL
INQUIRER.
   Further note:  Paul notes that BUFORA was the lone voice in the
wilderness, warning cerealogists not to get carried away with the
circle scene in the late 1980's.  UFOROM had advocated a rational
approach to this, too, as soon as the hype started up.  But who listens
to us Canadians, anyway?

                         UBI EST DATUM?

   Despite pleas for information about North American circles in 1992,
NAICCR has  not received much case data from researchers.  The NAICCR
preliminary reports have been posted several times, but very little
information from other researchers has been received.  For those who
have sent me data: thank you, your contributions are gratefully
credited.  Despite rumours that some cerealogy "experts" are becoming
more and more "proprietary", we hope that information exchange will be
ongiong, unlike the British experience.
   Since I have been receiving a number of requests, here is the latest
NAICCR preliminary list of rumoured or known North American UGMs and
crop circles.
=======================================================================

          1992 North American UGM List, November 1992

920426    Jonesboro, Georgia
-  a "formation" of crop circles, "exactly" like those found in
1991 in the same location, was discovered. No other data given.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

9204??           , New Hampshire
-  UGMs were found following a small local flap of UFO reports.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

920506    near Edmonton, Alberta
-  a "space cookie" UGM was discovered in a meadow.  It is a
perfect circle, 6 metres in diameter. Its depth varies from 5 cm
to 31 cm.  Grass is growing straight up both inside and outside
the circle.  No tracks were found leading to the area.  The UGM
is not a sinkhole.  Source: Gordon Kijek

920525    Limerick, Pennsylvania
-  at least 12 "matted down" areas were found in a wheatfield north of
Philadelphia.  Three were circles about five feet in diameter, arranged
in a triangle.  One feature was "T-shaped".  Soil samples taken by a UFO
investigator "showed no irregularities".  Geiger counter readings were
also normal.  Although a hoax was suspected by the UFO investigator,
the owner of the field believes that the UGMs were caused by lodging,
wind and fertilizer damage, and that "It happens every year".
Source: Steve Bernheisel on FIDONET; UFO Newsclipping Service #275

920627    Raeford, North Carolina
-  a circle of flattened grass was found in a hay field following
a CE2 UFO sighting.  A loud noise, "like a freight train", was
heard, and two witnesses ran to look out their front door.  A
object "the size of a swimming pool", "like orange windows lla
around it", was in a field about 300 feet away from their house.
When they went to call other witnesses, the object disappeared.
Source: Patrick Kirol on FIDONET

9206??               , Massachusetts
-  a small area of flattened cattails was found in a marsh close
to a major highway and reported as a crop circle.
Source: Tom Randolph on DEC COM via INTERNET

920701    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  nine "horseshoe-shaped" patches of flattened grass were found
on either side of a brook in a Winnipeg suburb. Because of recent
storms and heavy rainfall, lodging was thought to be the cause.
Source: Guy Westcott; NAICCR

920705    Hobbema, Alberta
-  two ovals of flattened barley were found in a field after
unusual lights were observed descending to the ground.  The
largest UGM has a major axis of 47 feet.  The crop is pushed away
uniformly from the centers of the patches, but the centers are
"clumped", like breaking waves.  Barley inside the circles is
"white", and devoid of colour.  It was later suggested that the areas
were due to spilled seeds and fertilizer, combined with lodging.
Source: Gord Kijek

920715    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  a field beside a highway was discovered to have numerous patches of
flattened crop, in irregular patterns.  The formations were discovered
by the same person who found case 920701.  Investigation by NAICCR and
interviews with the owner of the field established that the crop had
been laid down by strong winds and heavy rain.  The person who
discovered the formations was convinced that aliens created the
flattened patches.  Source: NAICCR

920721    Friedensruh, Manitoba
-  a farmer found a triangular area of flattened/swirled grass which
was surrounded by an electric fence.  The dimensions were 31x27x17
feet.  Local residents could not explain the phenomenon.  However,
NAICCR investigators found evidence that animals had trampled the site.
Source: NAICCR

920799    Pilot Peak, California
-  according to the Phoenix Project, a number of "landing zones" were
discovered near the site of an alleged underground alien base.  Visits
to the site by independent invesyigators have found only patches of
grass trampled by deer and other animals.  Two "landing zones" were
claimed.  Source: John Pickens on INTERNET via Paranet

920799    Miniota, Manitoba
-  it was reported that a crop circle was discovered in a field of
oats.  The circle is perfectly round and 32 feet in diameter.  The oats
are flattened and swirled in a clockwise fashion.  The center of the
circle is devoid of vegetation.  Source: NAICCR

920801    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a circle of flattened wheat was discovered in a field southwest of
Strathclair.  It was 28 feet in diameter.  The wheat was flattened and
swirled in a counterclockwise fashion.  Source: NAICCR

920808    Strathclair, Manitoba
- a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars (a
circle with an attached arrow pointing away from it) was discovered in
a field southwest of Strathclair.  The main circle was 28 feet in
diameter, with no detectable eccentricity.  The wheat was flattened
counterclockwise.  In the arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the
circle.  The arrow pointed on a bearing of 260 degrees. Source: NAICCR

920815    Ipswich, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered just east of Ipswich.  The main circle was elliptical, with
axes 26 and 24.5 feet.  The wheat was flattened counterclockwise.  The
arrow pointed on a bearing of 65 degrees.  A UFO was seen hovering over
the site the night before the UGM was discovered.  Source: NAICCR

920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat was found near other crop circle UGMs.  It
was roughly 20 feet in diameter.  Wheat was laid down in random clumps.
Examination suggested the area was caused by lodging.  Source: NAICCR

920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered west of Strathclair.  The main circle was 24 feet in
diameter.  The wheat was flattened in a counterclockwise fashion.  The
arrow pointed on a bearing of 120 degrees.  Source: NAICCR

920815    Estevan, Saskatchewan
-  two circles were found, sharing a tangent.  Each diameter was 12
feet.  A small path led from the tangent to a very small circle, within
which was a "squashed porcupine". Source: Chad Deetken

920815    Kyle, Saskatchewan
-  a flattened ring was found, 12 feet in diameter with a core of
standing wheat, 3.5 feet in diameter.  In the center were "porcupine
droppings".  Source: Chad Deetken

920817    Brandon, Manitoba
-  a television station received an anonymous call that a crop circle
had been found on the property of the Brandon airport. Explained easily
as a parachuting target.  Source: CKX-TV; Jeff Harland; NAICCR

920825    Guy, Alberta
-  fifteen circular marks were found in a field near Peace River,
Alberta.  Investigated by Gord Kijek of AUFOSG.  Source: AUFOSG

920820    Milestone, Saskatchewan
-  a triplet of crop circles, touching each other in a line, were
discovered in a wheat field.  The dimensions of the affected area were
63x22 feet.  All were swirled counterclockwise.  A "squashed porcupine"
was found inside the formation.  Investigated by Chad Deetken.

9208??    Champagne, Illinois
-  crop formations were found. No other info.  Source: NACCCS

920???          , Iowa
-  a number of "ice circles" were reported discovered.  Investigated by
Davina Riska?  No other data.  Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, NACCCS

920???    Troy, Illinois
-  circles were reported found in cattails.  Discovered by Peter
(Darren?) Bistrom (?).  Reported to MUFON (?).  Investigated at least
two months after their discovery by George Wingfield.
Source:  Rosemary Ellen Guiley, NACCCS

920923    Albertville, Saskatchewan
-  a circle with a ring was discovered in an oat field. The ring was 35
feet in diameter, and the circle was about 16 feet in diameter.  It was
swirled counterclockwise, but the ceter of the swirl was off-center.
The ring had a varying width of 15 to 27 inches.  Source: Chad Deetken

920924    Albertville, Saskatchewan
-  a second circle with a ring was discovered in a wheatfield.  Ring
diameter: 22 feet; circle: 13 feet.  Ring width: 8 inches.  All were
swirled counterclockwise.  Source:  Chad Deetken

920923    Melita, Manitoba
-  two circles were found in a wheat field, only a few feet apart.
Reported to NAICCR.  Investigated by Jeff Harland.

920930?   Orillia, Ontario
-  one large oval patch of flattened corn was found in a field near
Orillia.  The area was 75 by 100 feet, on the south slope of a
south-facing hill, only about 100 feet from a major highway.  The corn
was flattened and swirled in a counterclockwise direction.
Reported to NAICCR.  Source: Colin McKim.

921002    Nipawin, Saskatchewan
-  three circles were found in a wheatfield, spaced irregularly.  All
had diameters of about 8 feet and were swirled counterclockwise.
Source: Chad Deetken
=====================================================================

Are there others?  Let us know.

Zines received:  IUR (International UFO Reporter), Vol. 17, #4,5
ARCTURUS BOOK CATALOG (1442 Port St. Lucie Blvd., Port St. Lucie, FL
34952), 1992, #10,11; GEO-MONITOR (Vince Migliore, 65 Washington St.,
Suite 400, Santa Clara, CA 95050), Vol. 2, #9,10,11; WINNICENTRICS
(RASC Winnipeg Centre, 110 St. Paul's College, 930 Dysart Rd, University
of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3T 2M6), V. 50, #5,6; AFU
NEWSLETTER (Box 11027, S-600 11 Norrkoping, Sweden), 1991; JUST CAUSE
(Fawcett, Box 218, Coventry, CT 06238); MUFON JOURNAL (103 Oldtowne
Road, Seguin TX 87155-4099), #293,294; UFO PARADOX (Eric Aggen, Jr.,
Box 12245, Parkville MO 64152; CROP WATCHER (Paul Fuller), #12,13;
ORBITER (Box 652, Reading, MA 01867), #36; and a slough of others,
including Jenny Randles' NORTHERN UFO NEWS, Jim Moseley's SAUCER SMEAR
and HORIZON.  Sorry, I don't have other addresses handy.

WaHF:  Leanne Boyd, Paul Fuller, Mike Strainic, Christian Page, Angela
Mather, Peter Warren, Bob Girard, Chuck Muschweck (why, I don't know),
Bill Bell, Pat Vince, Shannon McGinn, Melissa Craig, Steve Canada, Paul
(the mad photocopyist) Cuttle [thx for all the stuff!], Linda Howe (or
at least her form letter), Eric Herr (no, Eric, I don't have info on
those cases you inquired about), Matteo Leone, Mary Ann Martini (the
Pavarotti tapes were great! Thx!), Gord (best and most underrated
ufologist in North America) Kijek, Mac Davidson (who wants to become a
ufologist when he grows up), Vince Migliore, Greg Kennedy, France
St-Laurent, Darren Hartigan, Janet Bord (UFO pix galore), Gary (best
underrated Fortean writer in Britain) Lanham, Ed Wilson (yes, Ed, I
will speak at the WoldCon in 1994), Lorne Goldfader (master of the fax
machine), and Mrs. Victor Wilson.  I want to make a special effort to
emphasize that my review in the last SGJ of Jerry Clark's UFO
Encyclopedia was meant to be very positive, and not negative as some
had interpreted. An especially big hello to virtual correspondents
Pamela Thompson and dAvid tHacker.  Thanks also are due to Roy Bauer,
Grant Cameron, Greg Kennedy, Vladimir Simosko - and Myra!  If I have
left anyone out, I'm sorry!  I can only dig through my "IN" basket
just SO far!

Best "classic" letter received:

"Gentlemen:
We are on the verge of organizing the Philippines' first UFO Watch, an
organization that will dedicate its knowledge and interest in ufology.
In this respect, would you know the equipment used in tracking down
incoming and landings as well as being able to pinpoint the presence of
an alien ship?
Also, can we represent your organization in the Philippines?
We hope to hear from you soonest possible.
Sincerely,
Hernan Ramirez de Cartagena"

======================================================================

The Swamp Gas Journal is copyright (c) 1992 by Chris A. Rutkowski.
Mail correspondence to:  Box 1918, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  R3C 3R2
Email correspondence to:  [e-mail]
The Swamp Gas Journal, UFOROM and NAICCR are not affiliated with the
University of Manitoba, and don't represent its ideas, opinions, etc.
(Standard disclaimer)
--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12955 alt.alien.visitors:11388 sci.skeptic:34874
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 15:55:53 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)
Lines: 15

God, I wish I could kill this thread.  Unluckily, I'm no longer
a UNIX honcho and I have to download everything in this newsgroup
to my PC.  Thanks for wasting my time and money with 5 consecutive
content-free posts, John.  Try leaving out the details of your
upcoming schedule.  Just stick to the REPORTS of your recent OBEs.

Try "OBE.2001 -  blah blah blah.", instead of "Tomorrow we are having
an OBE." followed by "OBE-2002".  Get it?  If you have an OBE, let
us know.  Just don't bother us with the net equivalent of "I'm going
to defecate tomorrow, like to come watch?"

-jim



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From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Date: 27 Nov 1992 01:30:25 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: piglet.caltech.edu
Originator: magney@piglet

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Mitchell Porter) writes:
> > [e-mail] writes:
> >>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be
little
> doubt
> >                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!
> THERE IS NO DOUBT.
> >>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Pl
> ains, are evidence of the
> >>existence of extraterrestrial life.
> > Not to mention the Great Wall of China, the Golden Gate Bridge, Ayers
Rock,
> > Disneyland, Stonehenge, Hyde Park and the Dallas School Book
Depository.
>
> I'll tell you one thing, your posting certainly doesn't prove the
existence of
> intelligent life.

And yours comes close to actively disproving it.

I see no reason why the Pyramids or the Nazca lines could not have been
made solely by human beings, nor do I see any reason why their construc-
tion has to be motivated by aliens.

If you have something to say about those things, please do email me.
--
| Michael Agney          | Yd - gender neutral pronoun    |
|                        |      (well, not quite)         |
|                        | Source:  Stories by Alison     |
| [e-mail] | Tellure, back issues of Analog |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12956 alt.alien.visitors:11390 sci.skeptic:34875
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:43:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University College Dublin
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Subject: Astral Projection.
>   I have had some requests to explain how astral projection is done so here
> goes;  Well now that we've got this far you should be able to do, !. Send
> and receive thoughts. 2. Seal the aura (we haven't covered that one yet) and
> 3. Call a flying saucer.  If you haven't accomplished these things yet it
> may take a while, say 10 or 20 years. Some people are born with these
> abilities and can do them without being taught, other people can do them
> with  a little bit of instruction, others take quite a while to learn and
> the last type of people are for sure they'll never learn and they usually
> are right.
>   Your usually accomplish what you put your mind to do.  Lately there has been
> a lot of information about out of the body experiences. That is where you
> are being operated on and while under anesthesia, are able to leave their
> physical body and float up to the ceiling, looking back on your body while
> the operation is being done.  After the anesthesia dies off then you return
> to your body.  fter you return  to your body and wake up in your physical
> body you are able to tell everybody what was going on during the operation
> even though you had your eyes closed.
>   In other cases people lay down to sleep and just before going to sleep leave
> their physical body and float into the other room and see things, then
> return.
>   Part of my training was to learn how to do astral projetion. To do this you
> relax in a chair, or bed or in the lotus posture, if your studying Yoga.
> Then let yourself go into sort of a trance.  You let you astral or spiritual
> body (your mind)leave your body and go to anywhere you might want to go.
> Your astral body is connected to your physical body by what is called the
> silver cord. Its sort of a thin piece of nearly invisible material that
> stretches out between your physical body and your astral body.  This all is
> just a way of explaining it and it can be seen by a person with clairvoyant
> vision.  One of my teachers could go all the way to Venus by astral
> projection.
>   Some people say that you should be careful that no one moves you while your
> on an astral journey because it will kill you if they break the silver cord
> but I've never been killed yet. I just wake up if someone shakes me.  Some
> people say you should have a teacher or Guru to accompany you on your trips
> but I could never seem to get all that organized so I just went anyway.
> After you get so far in all this business you'll find that the only real
> Guru is your higher self and if you can understand that little statement
> your pretty far advanced anyway.
>   When you first start all of this its nomal to have what is calld a snap
> back.  That is when you just leave your body and are going pretty good, then
> realize what your doing, get afraid and you mind will snap back into your
> body.  Sometimes your astral body comes back into you physical body and
> doesn't get aligned just right and you won't feel exactly right (sort of a
> headache).  All you have to do in a case like that is to go back into a
> regular sleep for at least 5 minutes and you'll be feeling OK.
> End Part 1.
> John Winston.

HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT MEETING A GURU, OR SOMEONE TO HELP YOU WITH ASTRAL
PROJECTION ??

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12957 alt.alien.visitors:11391 alt.religion.kibology:4895
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 92 18:40:57 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 49

Subject: Dinosaurs Now.
  There is a subject that I have been reading about lately that I have not
made any conclusion on at the present time and that is whether or not some
dinoasaurs exist  today. One has to be very careful in a study like this
because some people think that they know something and if you come up with
something that is different than what they believe then they will really
give you a hard time. My friend Robert Stanley said that he checked with a
group that had been investigating dinosaurs and when they didn't find what
they were looking for they just made a scale model of the dinosaur and had a
native swim inside the device as it came across the river and they
photographed. In other words they couldn't find it so they photographed it
anyway. So here we go on the first bit of information;  African scientists
claim they recently captured a live dinosaur.
  The 30-foot plant-eating reptile has a long neck and tail, and a body that
size of a small elephant.  The dinosaur's feet are shaped like dinner
plates.
  The team of scientists who found the monster, whose origins on this planet
date back some 65 million years, spent close to three years tracking the
remarkable throwback, called Mokele-Mbembe by natives of Zaire.
  The researchers used modern video cameras, sonar devices, and old fashioned
nets to track the dinosaur.  They followed trails discoverd by natives of
this equatorial African nation. these trails apparently were left by
Mokele-Mbembe as it wandered through swamps and undergrowth.
 Dr. Frederich Manning, one of the explores, says sighting are recorded as far
back as 1910.
  No specimen has been capatured before this one, however.
  To bring the dinosaur back alive, scientists disabled it with a tranquilizer
gun, then placed it in a cage.
  It was transported this way out of the depths of the jungle to a special
animal preserve.  There the dinosaur was freed, but scientists keep it under
constant video surveilance.
  This is possibly the most thrilling discovery of the century (they always
say that in these articles JW.).
  Dinosaurs were believed to have been exstinct for millions of years, but now
we have one in captivity.
  The scientist says he has not yet determined whether the dinosaur is male or
female.
  It does not appear to be lonely, so we are assuming it does not have a mate,
  We have sent teams back to the area where this one was captured to try to
track down another so we can breed them, but so far we have not found even a
fresh set of footprints.
  Tissue samples of the giant reptile have been analyzed by researhers who say
the dinosaur is approximately 100 years old.
  It has adapted very well to the animal reserve.
  It stays away from other animals, and seems perfectly content to hide in the
bushes or roll in the mud during the heat of the day. At night, it looks for
green leaves and fruit to eat.
  So there you have it folks. Is it true or false?
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 92 19:05:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear People: Today was Thankgiving. I had a great day and hope you
did too.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12959 alt.alien.visitors:11393 sci.skeptic:34881
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From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 92 20:51:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Lines: 48

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] has written:
[ ridiculous story, omitted ]
+--------------------
|   Once she looked around our living room and said, "What a dump, " just like
| that line from the Bette Davis movie. She likes to play dress up and wear
+--------------------

    Er, isn't that line from "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolfe", starring
    none other than Elizabeth Taylor??

+--------------------
| Bette Davis' eyes.  They are enormous and they protrude slightly and she
| uses them very
| day she will be just as famous.
+--------------------

    They protrude because she's probably filling her pants; elegantly, like
    Bette did when she was a baby, too!

+--------------------
|   This is your truly, (J W) speaking now. What do you think?
| John Winston.
+--------------------

    I think you've flipped your wig, John... a long time ago.  That
    Thorazine isn't working.

    What in HELL does this nonsense have to do with UFOs and alien
    visitors?  Absolutely NOTHING.  The same thing goes for half the
    crazy anecdotal stuff you post here.  Get with the program!  There
    are a lot of us who are really interested in this subject, and do
    NOT benefit AT ALL from your stories.  Please, John... it's time
    to quit.  If you insist on posting this (IMHO) garabge, you need
    to find an appropriate group to fit the subject.  This must cease.

    Enough is enough.

    Can someone tell me how to use a 'kill' file?  I've never really
    had such a need up until this point.

    Forrest
--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
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From: A Freind
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Keywords: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 03:49:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Organization: BeHereNow
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
>
>The pyramids were not built by slaves, but by paid workers. The construction
>is well documented and understood. No aliens are mentioned.
>                                                                Paul.
>

I have read extensivley, and been to the Great Pyramid, and I would have
to concure with Paul on this one. It's always possible that Kufu put
his initails on it later, to make it look like his own, and the Sphynx is
very likely much older than anyone ever previously guessed (and they are
guesses by the way...), but I do agree that it is likely the workers
were much better motivated than pure slavery can or normally would provide.
Good evidence that the workers were well paid is available.

Aliens could be involved on many subtle levels, regardless of any lack
of physical evidence; but purely the ideas held within, and surrounding
the design itself. Was it ever a tomb? That is the biggest question for me.
It has everything to do with "Why was the pyramid built, if not for a tomb".

And from the above concept we glean basic essoteric mystery of the pyramid,
and all the related concepts relative to the secrets held in it's design
and construction.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 05:16:15 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Derek Abbott) writes:

|In one of Carter's election campaign speeches he said that he's seen a UFO
|and that if he gets elected to become prez he'll make public all the govt
|files on UFOs.

|What ever became of this election promise? Did anything happen?


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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CONTACT NOTES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 01:11:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 34

From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail] (Don Allen)

DA|Just a word of advice - UMMO is largely held to be a hoax of some
  |magnitude. I suggest you read "Revelation" by Jacques Vallee, for
  |starters.
  `------------------------------------------------------------------

  I just finished that book yesterday. His theories and hoaxes are
  harder to believe than the stories reported. For those of you that
  have NOT read the book, Vallee believes that most UFO reports are
  true actual physical events, but that they are "staged" by the various
  intelligence groups around the world to cover up other activities.
  For example if the economy is bad, then stage a huge UFO hoax to take
  people's attention off the recession.

  I have to say that I think the guy is caught between a rock and a hard
  place, because he admits time and time again in his book that these
  UFO happenings are "real" because he has researched them himself.
  He's seen the evidence and talked first hand to the witnesses, but on
  the other-hand he does not want to admit that there are any Aliens, so
  he's trying to sell this half-baked theory about the sightings and
  abductions as actual physical events that are staged by covert
  government agencies.

  It sounds convincing in the book but when you stand-back and think
  about it then it's quite absurd. Why didn't the US send a UFO to
  abduct Saddam Hussein instead of all those troops? Why didn't Bush
  have Clinton abdcuted by Aliens and told too drop out of the
  Presidential race? Why don't we send a UFO to Somalia with food?

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OPERATION MAJESTIC-12 PRELIMINARY BRIEFING FOR
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 01:17:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 146

From: Joseph.Daniels#homebase.com
To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)


DRS|                             OPERATION RIGHT TO KNOW
DRS|Documented Evidence of the reality of UFOs is overwhelming, including evide
   |the U.S. military retrieved a crashed flying saucer in New Mexico in 1947.
   |Government's policy of withholding and confusing the facts of extraterrestr
   |contact is WRONG and MUST END.
   `--------------------------------------------------------------------------


   For those of you that are not aware of any government documents I
   have supplied a copy of one of the first...Enjoy!

                      THE MJ-12 Document

The  MJ-12 (Majestic 12) Documents are Classified  US  Government
Documents  that have surfaced and have been verified  by  various
experts  to  be authentic. Original criticism  arose  over  small
typing  errors.  It  was discovered that  top  secret  government
typists  are trained to insert small tying errors into each  copy
of a top secret document. By keeping a record of these "errors" a
leaked  document  can be traced by it's errors  to  the  original
person who recieved it.

Although all marks, letterhead, stamps etc. appear authentic  the
current controversy is over the format of the date. However other
government  documents  from the same period show  the  same  date
format have aparently been found.


The  document  is a breifing for the the president  of  the  USA,
Dwight  Eisenhower. It describes a crashed flying saucer and dead
aliens  that  were recovered in 1947. This is  not  the  original
document,  but  my  best effort to dupicate it  on  my  own  word
processor. - Joseph Daniels (UFO Joe)
.pa
                        TOP SECRET/MAJIC
                            EYES ONLY

                  NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                         COPY ONE OF ONE




            BRIEFING DOCUMENT: OPERATION MAJESTIC 12

 PREPARED FOR PRESIDENT-ELECT DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER: (EYES ONLY)

                        18 NOVEMBER, 1952



WARNING:  This  is a TOP SECRET - EYES ONLY  document  containing
compartmentalized information essential to the national  security
of the United States. EYES ONLY ACCESS to the material herein  is
strictly limited to those possessing Majestic-12 clearance level.
Reproduction in any form or the taking of written or mechanically
transcribed notes is strictly forbidden.

                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

                                                   T52-EXEMPT (E)
.pa
                        TOP SECRET/MAJIC
                            EYES ONLY


                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************


EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

   PRESIDENT-ELECT EISENHOWER.

DOCUMENT PREPARED 18 NOVEMBER, 1952.

BRIEFING OFFICER: ADM. ROSCOE H. HILLENKOETTER (MJ-1)

NOTE:  This document has been prepared as a preliminary  briefing
only. It should be regarded as introductory to a full  operations
briefing intended to follow.

                           * * * * * *

OPERATION  MAJESTIC-12 is a TOP SECRET Research and  Development/
Intelligence  operation  responsible  directly and  only  to  the
President  of  the United States. Operations of the  project  are

carried  out  under control of the Majestic-12  (Majic-12)  Group
which  was established by special classified executive  order  of
President  Truman on 24 September, 1947, upon  recommendation  by
Dr. Vannevar Bush and Secretary James Forrestal. (See  Attachment
"A".)  Members  of  the  Majestic-12  Group  were  designated  as
follows:

                Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter
                Dr. Vannevar Bush
                Secy. James V. Forrestal*
                Gen. Nathan F. Twining
                Gen. Hoyt S. Vandenberg
                Dr. Detlev Bronk
                Dr. Jerome Hunsaker
                Mr. Sidney W. Souers
                Mr. Gordon Gray
                Dr. Donald Manzel
                Gen. Robert M. Montague
                Dr. Lloyd V. Berkner

The  death  of  Secretary Forrestal on 22 May,  1949,  created  a
vacancy which remained unfilled until 01 August, 1950, upon which
date   Gen.   Walter  B.  Smith  was  designated   as   permanent
replacement.
.PA
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                         * TOP SECRET *
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EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

On  24  June,  1947, a civilian pilot  flying  over  the  Cascade
Mountains  in the State of Washington observed nine flying  disc-
shaped  aircraft traveling in formation at a high rate of  speed.
Although  this was not the first known sighting of such  objects,
it  was  the  first to gain widespread attention  in  the  public
media.  Hundreds  of  reports of  sightings  of  similar  objects
followed.  Many of these came from highly credible  military  and
civilian  sources. These reports resulted in independent  efforts
by  several different elements of the military to  ascertain  the
nature  and purpose of these objects in the interest of  national
defense.  A number of witnesses were interviewed and  there  were
>>> Continued to next message
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO March on Washingt 2/3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 01:17:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 146

>>> Continued from previous message
several  unsuccessful attempts to utilize aircraft in efforts  to
pursue reported discs in flight. Public reaction bordered on near
hysteria at times.

In spite of these efforts, little of substance was learned  about
the  objects until a local rancher reported that one had  crashed
in  a remote region of New Mexico located approximately  seventy-
five miles northwest of Roswell Army Air Base (now Walker Field).

On 07 July, 1947, a secret operation was begun to assure recovery
of  the wreckage of this object for scientific study. During  the
course  of this operation, aerial reconnaissance discovered  that
four  small  human-like beings had apparently  ejected  from  the
craft at some point before it exploded. These had fallen to earth
about two miles east of the wreckage site. All four were dead and
badly  decomposed due to action by predators and exposure to  the
elements during the approximately one week time period which  had
elapsed  before their discovery. A special scientific  team  took
charge of removing these bodies for study. (See Attachment  "C".)
The  wreckage of the craft was also removed to several  different
locations. (See Attachment "B".) Civilian and military  witnesses
in  the  area were debriefed, and news reporters were  given  the
effective  cover  story  that the object  had  been  a  misguided
weather research balloon.








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EYES ONLY                                         T52-EXEMPT (E)
.pa
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A covert analytical effort organized by Gen. Twining and Dr. Bush
acting  on  the  direct orders of the President,  resulted  in  a
preliminary concensus (19 September, 1947) that the disc was most
likely  a short range reconnaissance craft. This  conclusion  was
based for the most part on the craft's size and apparent lack  of
any  identifiable provisioning. (See Attachment "D".)  A  similar
analysis of the four dead occupants was arranged by Dr. Bronk. It
was  the tentative conclusion of this group (30  November,  1947)
that  although these creatures are human-like in appearance,  the
biological  and  evolutionary  processes  responsible  for  their
development  has  apparently  been  quite  different  from  those
observed  or  postulated in homo-sapiens. Dr.  Bronk's  team  has
suggested  the term "Extra-terrestrial Biological  Entities",  or
"EBEs"  be  adopted as the standard term of reference  for  these
creatures until such time as a more definitive designation can be
agreed upon.

Since  it is virtually certain that these craft do not  originate
in  any country on earth, considerable speculation  has  centered
around what their point of origin might be and how they get here.
Mars  was  and remains a possibility, although  some  scientists,
most  notably  Dr. Menzel, consider it more likely  that  we  are
dealing with beings from another solar system entirely.

Numerous  examples  of what appear to be a form of  writing  were
found  in the wreckage. Efforts to decipher these  have  remained
largely unsuccessful. (See Attachment "E".) Equally  unsuccessful
have  been efforts to determine the method of propulsion  or  the
nature  of method of transmission of the power  source  involved.
Research  along these lines has been complicated by the  complete
absence  of  identifiable  wings,  propellers,  jets,  or   other
conventional  methods  of propulsion and guidance, as well  as  a
total   lack  of  metallic  wiring,  vacuum  tubes,  or   similar
recognizable  electronic components. (See Attachment "F".) It  is
assumed that the propulsion unit was completely destroyed by  the
explosion which caused the crash.







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EYES ONLY                                          T52-EXEMPT (E)
.pa
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EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE


A need for as much additional information as possible about these
craft, their performance characteristics and their purpose led to
the undertaking known as U.S. Air Force Project SIGN in December,
1947.  In  order to preserve security, liason  between  SIGN  and
Majestic-12   was   limited  to  two   individuals   within   the
Intelligence  Division of Air Material Command whose role was  to
pass  along certain types of information through  channels.  SIGN
evolved  into Project GRUDGE in December, 1948. The operation  is
currently  being  conducted under the code name BLUE  BOOK,  with
liason  maintained through the Air Force officer who is  head  of
the project.

On  06  December,  1950, a second  object,  probably  of  similar
origin,  impacted  the  earth at high speed in  the  El  Indio  -
Guerrero  area  of the Texas - Mexican border after  following  a
long trajectory through the atmosphere. By the time a search team
arrived,  what  remained of the object had  been  almost  totally
incinerated. Such material as could be recovered was  transported
to the A.E.C. facility at Sandia, New Mexico, for study.

Implications   for  the  National  Security  are  of   continuing
importance  in that the motives and ultimate intentions of  these
visitors  remain completely unknown. In addition,  a  significant
upsurge in the surveillance activity of these craft beginning  in
May  and  continuing through the autumn of this year  has  caused
considerable concern that new developments may be imminent. It is
for  these  reasons,  as well as the  obvious  international  and
technological  considerations  and the ultimate need to  avoid  a
public panic at all costs, that the Majestic-12 Group remains  of
the  unanimous opinion that imposition of the strictest  security
precautions  should  continue without interruption into  the  new
administration. At the same time, contingency plan MJ-1949-04P/78
(Top  Secret - Eyes Only) should be held in  continued  readiness
should  the  need to make a public announcement  present  itself.
(See Attachment "G".)






>>> Continued to next message
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 . SLMR 2.1a . InfoNet London [phone] Hit ^C and enter HELP at $

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO March on Washingt 3/3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 01:17:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 65

>>> Continued from previous message
                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE
.pa
                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

                  ENUMERATION OF ATTACHMENTS:

     *ATTACHMENT "A"........Special Classified Executive
                            Order #092447. (TS/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "B"........Operation Majestic-12 Status
                            Report #1, Part A.  30 NOV '47.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "C"........Operation Majestic-12 Status
                            Report #1, Part B.  30 NOV '47.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "D"........Operation Majestic-12 Preliminary
                            Analytical Report.  19 SEP '47.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "E"........Operation Majestic-12 Blue Team
                            Report #5.  30 JUN '52.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "F"........Operation Majestic-12 Status
                            Report #2.  31 JAN '48.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "G"........Operation Majestic-12 Contingency
                            Plan MJ-1949-04P/78:  31 JAN '49.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "H"........Operation Majestic-12, Maps and
                            Photographs Folio (Extractions).
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)
.pa










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                         * TOP SECRET *
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EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

---
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Swamp Gas Journal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 01:28:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 19

From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)


CR|Volume 6               The SWAMP GAS JOURNAL            ISSN 0707-7106
  |Number 3               *********************            November 1992
  `----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Chris, I saw you recently on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries about
  the Michael Mikoloski (sp?) case in Manitoba.

  Your Journal is fantastic, it sure beats some of the "crap" I see
  posted here. How can I get back issues?

  I am located in London, Ontario...is there a local UFO group that you
  know of? I'd really like to get more involved.
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Don't put Descarte before the horse.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12961 alt.alien.visitors:11401 sci.skeptic:34890
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!cheops!pclink
From: [e-mail] (Rick)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Telecom Australia, TNE Computer Support Services
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 07:41:33 GMT
Lines: 30

[e-mail] writes:

>I explained the pyramid thing to a guy last night, well partly at least.  I
>don't have the time to put a full and detailed posting on the subject and
>frankly I wouldn't anyway because you never know who's reading.
>    The pyramids were built by aliens aided by the Egyptians, using sound to
>construct them.

Please post an explanation, or at least a pointer to your sources.

>    The Nazca lines  were ORIGINALLY runways for UFOs.  After alien activity
>and research in the area stopped the Nazca indians added to the lines creating
>pictures in the plains.  They even learned how to fly from the aliens allowing
>them to see their work.

All of the documentaries I've seen would seem to indicate that UFOs have
VTOL capability.  Why do they need runways?  And the Nazca aliens learnt to
fly?  Did they use their knowldege?  From observing an alien craft, did
they experience major social/economic changes, have an industrial
revolution, build a manufacturing base, manufacture flying machines, then
slide back into barbarism?

Rick.



>
>>     Jason
>>
>>
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12963 alt.alien.visitors:11402 sci.skeptic:34896
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psgrain!ee.und.ac.za!shrike.und.ac.za!pcu20.mtb.und.ac.za!stofberg
From: [e-mail] (Prof. Jacobus Stofberg)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 10:27:17 GMT
Organization: University Of Natal (Durban)
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pcu20.mtb.und.ac.za

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Magician) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (The Magician)
>Subject: Re: Space Craft Without Pants
>Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 10:11:37 GMT
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>Dear Space People Watchers:  The people from other planets as far as
>>I have been told will give a sun a name (some of them call our
>>sun Shan) and we are considered to be the third orbit from our sun
>>unless you count Vulcan so we are the number three orbit planet of
>>the sun Shan, except they don't use the same words for your numbers.
>>John Winston. The people in our solar system use a inter planetary
>>language called Solar Max. It's  sort of the same way we use Latin
>
>Solar Max ??? that does'nt have anything to do with Fantastic Max does it ?
>you know.. that cartoon kid who travels the cosmos in a toy space ship
>to save the galaxy, with his teddy bear robot ?
>
>>as an international language. I will now close with solar language
>>and say goodbye and may God be with you. Adona Vasu Baragus.
>
>Diolch yn vawr !
>
>is all I have to say.
>
>Tim.
>[e-mail]
>Dreams fade, but nigthmares live forever.
>
q



q
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12964 alt.alien.visitors:11403 sci.skeptic:34903
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 09:45:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rick) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>I explained the pyramid thing to a guy last night, well partly at least.  I
>>don't have the time to put a full and detailed posting on the subject and
>>frankly I wouldn't anyway because you never know who's reading.
>>    The pyramids were built by aliens aided by the Egyptians, using sound to
>>construct them.
>
> Please post an explanation, or at least a pointer to your sources.

One source that is readily available is "Linda Goodman's Star Signs", part of
which concentrates on the use of sound.
    My main source can not be named.


>
>>    The Nazca lines  were ORIGINALLY runways for UFOs.  After alien activity
>>and research in the area stopped the Nazca indians added to the lines creating
>>pictures in the plains.  They even learned how to fly from the aliens allowing
>>them to see their work.
>
> All of the documentaries I've seen would seem to indicate that UFOs have
> VTOL capability.  Why do they need runways?  And the Nazca aliens learnt to
> fly?  Did they use their knowldege?  From observing an alien craft, did
> they experience major social/economic changes, have an industrial
> revolution, build a manufacturing base, manufacture flying machines, then
> slide back into barbarism?
>
> Rick.
>
>

The Nazca indians did not learn to fly or create UFOs.  Rather, they saw that
it was possible for large objects to leave the ground in controlled flight.
This led them to experiment and eventually they developed a primitive form of
hot air balloon which allowed them to plan their work properly.
    At the time when the earliest Nazca lines were created, there was a major
UFO base there.  The 'runways' were intended to be navgational.  An interesting
theory is that the original Nazce lines were a map of the cosmos.



>
>>
>>>     Jason
>>>
>>>
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12965 alt.alien.visitors:11404 sci.skeptic:34905
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 09:49:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
>
> The pyramids were not built by slaves, but by paid workers. The construction
> is well documented and understood. No aliens are mentioned.
>                                                                 Paul.
>
> Paul Milsom
> [e-mail]

Of course aliens aren't mentined in any documentation.  Just the same as alien
intervention in WW2 and Vietnam has never been widely documented.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12966 alt.alien.visitors:11405 sci.skeptic:34916
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 06:21:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear People of Good Will: Your commments have been of great interest
to me. I have been trying to figure something out and maybe your can
help me. As you probubly know Polaris the north group of stars is
used as the position for our north pole or the north direction. As we
progress in time it is said that we will slowly move in our rotation
so another star will be used as the north star. The question is which
star was the north star before Polaris and which star will be the
next north star after Polaris (which is more than one star)? Please
post your answer.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!news.belwue.de!eratu.rz.uni-konstanz.de!v36.chemie.uni-konstanz.de!C43
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Alien visitors landed in lake of konstanz (Ger)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Univ.Konstanz,Konstanz,Germany
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 11:54:50 GMT
Lines: 17

On 25 of Nov. 1992 we saw two alien starships landing in the lake of
konstanz, between 11 and 11.30 pm cet. The starships landed between
konstanz and bregenz. It was a wonderfull sight, we could feel a
strong "force field" 10 min before we saw the first lightning in the
sky. It was an oscilating flashlight, that blinded m
our eyes. We cannot describe if it was a hurting or a calming
feeling, but it was really wonderful. It was if when they ran down
from the sky on a lumious street. Then they stood over the lake
in about 5 meters and they threw out something that looked like a
ball. That ball sank down in the lake, it is one of the deepest
places in the lake, and the aliens started again their powerful
rockets of their ships and disappeared in a flash of light and
with a roaring sound. We couldn't stand the hurting light, so we
had to look away and when we stared in the sky again, there was
nothing left, the sky was empty. But we know, there were aliens
at the lake of Konstanz and they left something back and someday
they'll come back.     Heinz, Alex, Andi
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12967 alt.alien.visitors:11407
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 06:24:42 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Ones: Welcome back from Thanksgiving. I hope you had a good one.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Penn State UFO Discussion Group
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 06:33:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Big Time UFO Club Leaders: Boy that is very impressive, all of those
guest and everything. I know you have put forth a lot of effort in this
endeavor. Keep up the good work.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 06:43:27 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Question Asker:
I found your questions very interesting and will try to answer them
but I have to get to work now.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 27 Nov 92 10:33:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 11

[e-mail](Simon E.Booth) Tues 24 Nov 92 05:19:23  types--
>Pardon me is this a FAQ but who is this John Wilson character?.

Well you might as well inquire who is God.

***********************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
****************************

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE!meins.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE!cp
From: [e-mail] (Christoph Peus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien visitors landed in lake of konstanz (Ger)
Date: 27 Nov 1992 15:41:54 GMT
Organization: CS Department, Dortmund University, Germany
Lines: 9
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meins

Dear Heinz, Alex, Andi,

thank you very much for another "let us see if these a.a.v. guys are stupid
enough to believe this garbage" posting !
You should inform yourself better next time to avoid those stuff even a
'Ufo believer' cannot believe. (excepted John_-_Winston of course ... )

Regards,
  Christoph
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!concert!mercury!stern!ervin
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Ervin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abort
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 92 19:27:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Sender)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: CSA LAB., NC A&T State University
Lines: 1
Nntp-Posting-Host: stern.ncat.edu

Test.....
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Potted Hypnotic Memories
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 28 Nov 92 10:54:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (Rich Payne) Thu 26 Nov 1992 16:27:40 GMT  types--
>Not that I am clear on what the difference is between real & planted
>memories are.

Maybe one can be aquired wholesale:-)

************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY?
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL.
*************************

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!access.usask.ca!mizar.cc.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Re: Swamp Gas Journal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: ccu.umanitoba.ca
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 22:10:59 GMT
Lines: 26

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>CR|Volume 6               The SWAMP GAS JOURNAL            ISSN 0707-7106

>  Chris, I saw you recently on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries about
>  the Michael Mikoloski (sp?) case in Manitoba.

Michalak.  Read the SGJ issue!

>  Your Journal is fantastic, it sure beats some of the "crap" I see
>  posted here. How can I get back issues?

The previous isue is also available.  I will email it to you.  David
Thacker says he has put the issue before that one into Compu$erve
somewhere.

>  I am located in London, Ontario...is there a local UFO group that you
>  know of? I'd really like to get more involved.

In a word, no.  There ARE some groups near you (well, TO), but some may
not be etremely objective.  You might try Bonnie Wheeler in Cambridge.
Her group has regular meetings, with a WIDE range of interests.

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 17:54:06 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 27

Subject: Answers to Questions.
  It has been asked how I manage to post so much and still have a regular job.
 In the back of my house I have a computer set up where I do my posting.
From the computer it goes by phone to a communications company by the name
of Portal and they send it to the net. It is a local call. When I get up in
the morning I do a little posting and then when I get home.  I post things
to a floppy disk and then put them on the Net.  My days off are Sunday and
Monday and on those days I do quite a bit of posting.
  People wonder where I get the material that I post. Some of it comes from
tabloid magazines. I realize that a lot of the information in these
magazines is just a bunch of garbage but sometimes you can find a few pearls
of wisdom in there especially if you read what is written by Brad Stieger
and Stanton Friedman.  Some of the material comes from channeled information
from the space people. This material is sometimes in magazines like UFO
Universe. I have a circle friends who collect and put me on to material.
Jeff P. gives me information and also Kumar through the E-mail. One person
sent me 103 K bytes at one time.  Some of the information I take off the Net
and rewrite it so it makes more sense in my opinion. I once had a Guru who
is now dead who used to teach me a lot about the space people. I once was on
the sides of Mt. Shasta and was given 2 spiritual masters who have given me
guidance and information ever since. The space people give me guidance. I
once live on Venus in a previous life and I and many other volunteered to
come to earth to bring in the new age. I have even been taken aboard a space
craft in the spirtual or astral form and been allowed to pilot a space craft
for a while.
  That's all the time I have now to answer questions.
John Winton.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: JW
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 17:56:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Ones: I have read all of your postings and will consider them
very seriously.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Potted Hypnotic Memories
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 02:47:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:
>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) Thu 26 Nov 1992 16:27:40 GMT  types--
>>Not that I am clear on what the difference is between real & planted
>>memories are.
>
>Maybe one can be aquired wholesale:-)

Don't you need a reseller lisence for that? This does remind me of an
interesting Science Fiction story I read some time ago. Wish I could
remember what it was called.

>************************
>ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY?
>OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
>TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL.
>*************************
>


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Arbaline)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Keywords: Vega
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 09:04:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov28.090419.23858
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I have been trying to figure something out and maybe your can
>help me. As you probubly know Polaris the north group of stars is
>used as the position for our north pole or the north direction. As we
>progress in time it is said that we will slowly move in our rotation
>so another star will be used as the north star. The question is which
>star was the north star before Polaris and which star will be the
>next north star after Polaris (which is more than one star)? Please
>post your answer.
>John Winston.

Vega! Just as own planet Earth has an Arctic circle around the top of
its upper hemisphere, so does the celestial sphere of stars have a
similar invisible ring. As Earth's orbit wobbles through its 26,000
year precession cycle of the equinoxes, the point in space to which
the north pole points varies around this ring. Presently, the north
point points to the star Polaris, so we call it the north star, but it
will seem to us to move gradually away from our true north point as
time goes on. The only other major star on this ring is the very
bright star Vega, but we have at least another 10,000 years to go. A
few thoughts: Our true "north celestial star" should be whatever is at
the center of the precession ring, not whatever star is at or near the
present point on the ring (just as our north pole is at the center of
the Arctic circle, not whatever point on the Arctic circle is
presently perpendicular to the Earth Sun plane.) Also, it would be
interesting to determine the exact year where Polaris is actually
closest to being our North Star. It's within a 100 years of now, and
with the Aquarian Age coming, it would be interesting to look into.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail].      |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxc.isc.rit.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1992 10:09:43 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich) writes:
>From article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] has written:
>[ ridiculous story, omitted ]
>+--------------------
>|   Once she looked around our living room and said, "What a dump, " just like
>| that line from the Bette Davis movie. She likes to play dress up and wear
>+--------------------
>
>    Er, isn't that line from "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolfe", starring
>    none other than Elizabeth Taylor??
>
>    Forrest
>--
If it is, Taylor is quoting/alluding to Bette Davis' line in that movie--
the title of which I can never remember--where she plays an unfaithful
wife in the north woods of Wisconsin and comes to a bad end. Joseph
Cotton played her husband, and David somebody her wealthy lover from
Chicago. (David Bryant?)

Erik Timmerman

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 01:25:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 40


 > From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
 > Date: 27 Nov 92 01:11:00 GMT
 > Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 >   I just finished that book yesterday. His theories and hoaxes are
 >   harder to believe than the stories reported. For those of you that
 >   have NOT read the book, Vallee believes that most UFO reports are
 >   true actual physical events, but that they are "staged" by the various
 >   intelligence groups around the world to cover up other activities.
 >   For example if the economy is bad, then stage a huge UFO hoax to take
 >   people's attention off the recession.

I disagree with your assessment of what Vallee is trying to say.  That can be a part of it, for example the discovery of the UMMO-cult being part of an eastern bloc intelligence network.  However, he is saying that there appears to be a control mechanism of some sort involved in the phenomenon, but it operates from a background position, perhaps using people in some capacity, either knowingly or not, to execute its agenda.  "It" being the control factor, whatever that is.  Suffice it to say that whatever i


s going on, it has many, many layers and no one is able to actually conceive just how complex it really is.  There can be some action on the part of a covert intelligence group that could stage abductions or sightings for that matter utilizing some bizarre advanced technology like laser-generated holograms, and a host of other things involving drugs, mind control techniques and whatever to achieve a purpose.

 >   I have to say that I think the guy is caught between a rock and a hard
 >   place, because he admits time and time again in his book that these
 >   UFO happenings are "real" because he has researched them himself.
 >   He's seen the evidence and talked first hand to the witnesses, but on
 >   the other-hand he does not want to admit that there are any Aliens, so
 >   he's trying to sell this half-baked theory about the sightings and
 >   abductions as actual physical events that are staged by covert
 >   government agencies.

 >   It sounds convincing in the book but when you stand-back and think
 >   about it then it's quite absurd. Why didn't the US send a UFO to
 >   abduct Saddam Hussein instead of all those troops? Why didn't Bush
 >   have Clinton abdcuted by Aliens and told too drop out of the
 >   Presidential race? Why don't we send a UFO to Somalia with food?

I feel that Vallee is one of the most accurate thinkers studying this field. He is a scientist and has solid credentials.  He does not get bogged down in the half-baked pseudo-religious/scientific cult-like thinking so prevalent in the field.  He deals with actual case studies and hard data, drawing some theories from that.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 10:48:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 29

This should probably be posted once a week.  A number of new people have
joined, or have been passing through, a.a.v in the past few weeks so this
bears repetition:

There are a number of strange (for want of a better word) people who
frequent this newsgroup.  John Winston and Gary Stollman being the most
recognisable to those who have "stuck it out".  There is a simple strategy
to deal with these people if you don't believe what they are sprouting:
ignore them, or put them in your kill file.  Too simple?

If you believe what they say, fine - it's your right to believe whatever you
want.  But if not, don't add to the noise.

Trying to get them to stop is fruitless.  Also keep in mind that they could
just be pranksters posting to get attention and to laugh at people who
take them seriously or flame them.  They could even be disinformation agents
setting out to discredit the lot of us.  Drawing attention to them just eggs
them on to post more.  Us long-timers (if I can call myself that :-) gave up
long ago trying to get them to stop.

I haven't checked the latest FAQ, but this should probably be put in if it's
not there already.

Back to our regularly scheduled ... whatever it is we discuss here. :)

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:17:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Thanks very much for the information about the North Star
and Bette Davis. You are all a fount of Knowledge.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12976 alt.alien.visitors:11423
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:25:35 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Folks: At the present time I am making up a group to go into
the underground city in Death Valley. I have two or possubly three
who plan to go with me if all goes well.  We will probubly drop
by and see the pyramid or storehouse at Lone Pine, Calif. too. We
may also drop by the Early Site of Man just outside of Barstow, Calif.
John Winston.  We will be gone from Dec. 26th till about the last
day of Dec.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Renaming a.a.v.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:39:38 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: Did I hear my name mentioned in vain?  I agree with the
comments mentioned about KGO and their selection of guest although
I love the station and listen to it a lot. I even listen to Rush
LImbaugh. Now that should get me a few flames.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:43:18 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Gary: Welcome back. They may call you a lot of things, but your
not dull.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:47:50 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I glad we have the right to listen to who ever we please.
I appreciate this person giving us his oppinion.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Date: 28 Nov 1992 16:32:06 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes:
=A few thoughts: Our true "north celestial star" should be whatever is at
=the center of the precession ring, not whatever star is at or near the
=present point on the ring (just as our north pole is at the center of
=the Arctic circle, not whatever point on the Arctic circle is
=presently perpendicular to the Earth Sun plane.)

Why ever would you care about something like that?  The north star is useful
for navigational purposes.  For those, you want to know which way the Earth's
axis is pointing NOW, not some average taken over many millenia.

=Also, it would be
=interesting to determine the exact year where Polaris is actually
=closest to being our North Star. It's within a 100 years of now, and
=with the Aquarian Age coming, it would be interesting to look into.

Ah.  That explains it.  Well, if you want to base your superstitions on
million-year averages, please feel free to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!pavo.csi.cam.ac.uk!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!ccdarg
From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Potted Hypnotic Memories
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 17:11:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) Thu 26 Nov 1992 16:27:40 GMT  types--
>>>Not that I am clear on what the difference is between real & planted
>>>memories are.
>>
>>Maybe one can be aquired wholesale:-)
>
> Don't you need a reseller lisence for that? This does remind me of an
> interesting Science Fiction story I read some time ago. Wish I could
> remember what it was called.

That's  P.K. Dick I think. "We can remember it for you wholesale" or
something like that. Made into the film with Arnie muscles going to Mars.
Now what was the film called again?

--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
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From: [e-mail] (glenn durden)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 21:27:21 +1100
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 16

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear People: Today was Thankgiving. I had a great day and hope you
> did too.
> John Winston.

Ok, so it was thanksgiving in your country.
You americans seem to forget this is a worldwide net, and that your
local customs mean diddly-shit to people around the other side of the planet.

GD  (whats this got to do with a.a.v anyway?)

.........................................................
glenn durden
[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Potted Hypnotic Memories
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 19:52:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 49
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Alan Greig) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
> > In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:
> >>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) Thu 26 Nov 1992 16:27:40 GMT  types--
> >>>Not that I am clear on what the difference is between real & planted
> >>>memories are.
> >>
> >>Maybe one can be aquired wholesale:-)
> >
> > Don't you need a reseller lisence for that? This does remind me of an
> > interesting Science Fiction story I read some time ago. Wish I could
> > remember what it was called.
>
> That's  P.K. Dick I think. "We can remember it for you wholesale" or
> something like that. Made into the film with Arnie muscles going to Mars.
> Now what was the film called again?



Funny you can't remember it.
It's called Total Recall :) :)


JM.

























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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CONTACT NOTES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:45:29 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 31

>   I have to say that I think the guy is caught between a rock and a hard
>   place, because he admits time and time again in his book that these
>   UFO happenings are "real" because he has researched them himself.
>   He's seen the evidence and talked first hand to the witnesses, but on
>   the other-hand he does not want to admit that there are any Aliens, so
>   he's trying to sell this half-baked theory about the sightings and
>   abductions as actual physical events that are staged by covert
>   government agencies.
>
I think that your conjecture is valid, alle's claims are indeed very
unlikely. After reading the Cooper/Vallee interview I must say that, in
the light of that what you just said, it becomes likely to me that Vallee
would play a role in a disinformation campaign.

The scope of his claims make it possible to catch two birds with ones
stone, first the his own 007 kind of story is sufficient to give sceptics
a perfect weapon to do away with the whole subject, while by assuming the
role of the critical interviewer he makes Cooper's claims the more
unlikely. Along the lines of 'here we have a crackpot who is not even
being taken serious by the other obvious crackpot. The whole thing is
being turned over to laughers, what better method of keeping a coverup
going. Nobody wants to become the target of ridicule and those of us who
defy that prospect will not be listened to anyhow.

Greetings Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 06:35:41 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 25

> |In one of Carter's election campaign speeches he said that he's seen a UFO
> |and that if he gets elected to become prez he'll make public all the govt
> |files on UFOs.
>
> |What ever became of this election promise? Did anything happen?
>
>

Is this not a case in point for what Cooper claimed, let's face it if
there is indeed secret government involvement along the lines described
by him, than it would make very good sence that President Carter and
candidte Carter would take a totally different approach. Maybe it would
be a useful idea to begin a series of letters to former President Carter
along the line of the 'letters to Clinton'. Realistically however I don't
expect any form of reply. Just for the record I did not say that that
what Cooper claims is actually true, but the Carter thing does come in
support of these claims.

Greetings Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 18:57:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

1>
Subject: Answers To
Questions. Part 2.
   It was asked what connection do invisible fish have with UFOs.  I was
trying to show a progression of invisible fish, invisible space people and
other dimensions. Before we  can understand the space people we are going to
have to realize that we are in a very low vibrational state and most of the
space people are so much higher in freq. than us that we can't even see
them.  You will find that the frequency of  our aura  will be proportional
to our soul developement and many people don't even believe that they have a
soul.
  So that's why invisible fish are important.
John Winston End Part 2.


w

,(x<xkxxx    x
,<
0Roman 10cpi
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12980 alt.alien.visitors:11434 sci.skeptic:34972
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 19:04:07 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Deaar Folks: You people never fail to amaze me with your postings.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11435 alt.conspiracy:20254
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 00:00:30 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Gary: Welcome back. They may call you a lot of things, but your
> not dull.
> John Winston.

Finally, a comment with substance from JW :)

-Garrett


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12981 alt.alien.visitors:11436
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 00:03:03 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: At the present time I am making up a group to go into
> the underground city in Death Valley. I have two or possubly three
> who plan to go with me if all goes well.  We will probubly drop
> by and see the pyramid or storehouse at Lone Pine, Calif. too. We
> may also drop by the Early Site of Man just outside of Barstow, Calif.
> John Winston.  We will be gone from Dec. 26th till about the last
> day of Dec.
> John Winston.

So basically you are telling us that we should expect a significant
increase in the signal-to-noise ratio in this newgroup for five days!

Thanks John,

-Garrett


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 05:01:24 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>1>
>Subject: Answers To
>Questions. Part 2.
>   It was asked what connection do invisible fish have with UFOs.  I was
>trying to show a progression of invisible fish, invisible space people and
>other dimensions. Before we  can understand the space people we are going to
>have to realize that we are in a very low vibrational state and most of the
>space people are so much higher in freq. than us that we can't even see
>them.  You will find that the frequency of  our aura  will be proportional
>to our soul developement and many people don't even believe that they have a
>soul.
>  So that's why invisible fish are important.
>John Winston End Part 2.

John, you have me confused. If I read this right, then these invisible
fish must be at a higher "vibrational state" than most of mankind. I rather
thought that the most primitive  man was far more advanced than the most
evolved fish. Then again, without knowing exactly what a "vibrational state"
is, confused may not be the right word.

>w
>
>,(x<xkxxx    x
>,<
>0Roman 10cpi

I'd suggest a mono-spaced font for posting to the net.


Rich

[e-mail]




From: [e-mail] (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 18:42:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Renaming a.a.v.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Mfg. Test Div., Loveland, CO
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!scd.hp.com!hpscdm!hplextra!hpfcso!hplvec!brian
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Since aliens seem to like to eat humans, I propose we eat Mr. Winston,
who, if the truth be known, is really from the star cluster Sigret (which
is near the conjunction of Zeta Reticuli and Barnard's Star).

After all, "Winston tastes good, like a Sigret should."

Brian
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pictures of Alien (Roswell)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 05:59:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 56


    [e-mail] (Author) writes:
    Hi, everyone. I was reading UFO Crash Secrets at
    Wright/Patterson Air Force base, by James W. Moseley. On the
    backcover of this book a picture apperently of one of the
    aliens recovered from the crash site. This picture seems to
    originate from the late Prof Zigel.

... I dunno if we're talking about the same photo (since you don't
describe it), but from Leonard Stringfield's "Status Report VI" (July,
1991 -- pg. 132):

    "Sensation and mystery were the names of the game when a real
looking alien photo made its rounds in Europe in late 1990.  First to
burst on the scene was a black and white photo that surfaced from a
Russian source which showed a front view of a chubby-faced dead
'alien' with slanting eyelids covering a pair of large eyes."
    According to Michael Hesemann, in Germany, who got an
exclusive copy from a reliable Russian source, the photo had a
'Canadian connection', rumored to be a scientist who had sent a copy
to the late Felix Zigel, In Russia.  Zigel, a scientist known to the
Western nations, was the Soviets' leading UFO researcher going back into
the 1970's.  I published some of his findings in 'Situation Red: The
UFO Seige'" [Out of print, alas - CWM]
    Also, it was rumored that the alien in the photo had a Roswell
connection.  Suddenly, its aura of mystery became important.
Hesemann, sensing its importance, trustingly sent three or four copies
to American researchers for examination and, as always, copies were
soon in the hands of everybody.
    As research pondered its significance, a few willing to
accepti it as 'proof', another photo, in color, showing a face similar
to the black and white copy, began to mushroom in Europe.  I got a
copy from Erik Olsen, a researcher in Copenhagen Denmark, in December
1990.  When I called him to learn his source, he could only say that
it came from England.
    The mystery was soon solved.  When I called Christian Page in
Canada, requesting data on the Carp crash case [dealt with separately
in SR VI - CWM], we talked about other subjects, too, including alien
photos such as the rib cage phony and the photo that was currently
circulating showing the fat-faced alien.  Page, disturbed that it was
making news, came out forthright to say that he was the person who
took the colored photo in 1979 at a Montreal exhibition.  Said Page in
his letter of May 30, 1991, quoted in part:
        ...The humanoid in the picture, despite its amazing
        realism, was simply a wax reproduction that I had
        photographed at the Pavillon de l insolite [sp? -CWM],
        in Montreal, one of the permanent exhibits built
        for the Universal Exposition in 1967.

    Page further stated that the dummy, real-sized, was dressed in
a metallic suit (in reality, a scuba diver suit) and rested lengthwise
under a plexiglass cylinder."

... does that help?

Charles
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12982 alt.alien.visitors:11440 sci.skeptic:34976
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!pitt.edu!gvls1!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 04:43:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 34

Compare and Contrast:

Posted November 23, 1992:
[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>
>      The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
>      child-eating varmints!
>

From "Hangin' with Zontar on the Grassy Knoll" by Brian Siano, _The
Humanist_, Nov./Dec. 1992, and on the stands since Oct. 1:

    "Aliens have to put up with a lot of prejudice these days.
UFOlogists have dubbed then "Greys" because of their skin color-- they don't
even try to use the more politically correct "Ashen Americans." And then
there's those rotten stereotypes. _All_ aliens abduct humans for medical
experiments. _All_ aliens enjoy mutilating cattle. Those Greys are _taking
over our country_ with their superior technology. Their spaceships are
smaller, faster, and more fuel-efficient than ours. The Greys are crafty,
sinister, telepathic, inscrutable, and they all look alike. The Greys want
our _women_."



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
Servo: "Dianetics, by L. Ron Hubbard."
Joel:  "Why is my life messed up? Page 74."
Servo: "When will this movie end? Page 155."
Crow:  "How much money can we get out of Tom Cruise? Page 85."
                                       "Mystery Science Theater 3000,"
                                       during a volcano scene in
                                       "Hercules and the Moon Men."
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Who believes?
Date: 29 Nov 1992 06:37:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Just a question:  Who really believes that we are being visited by aliens?
I would like to gather more facts on the subject as well as weird information
about the ancient world and such.

Here's one to start it off:

The Great Pyramid lies exactly on top of the center of gravity of the Earth's
continents.  Not only that, but also if you multiply the height of the Great
Pyramid by 10^9, you get the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun.  As
a side note, the Area divided by twice the Height equals to PI.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Vallee
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 23:14:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 22

To: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)

MC|I disagree with your assessment of what Vallee is trying to say.  That can b
  |part of it, for example the discovery of the UMMO-cult being part of an east
  |bloc intelligence network.
  `-------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Well, I think it's a well established fact that the intelligence
  community keeps close tabs on all UFO groups.

  Seems to me that in his last book he thought UFOs where a phsycic
  phenomenon.

  You're are right, there seems to be a lot of "freaks and weirdos" in
  the field, but are they "real" or are they intelligence agents
  spreading dis-information and making the entire study of UFOs a
  laughing matter, a stance the US has taken since the '50s?

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Klaatu Barada Nikto!

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12983 alt.alien.visitors:11443
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Underground Base
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 92 23:23:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 56

To:[e-mail]
From: [e-mail]

JO|Dear Folks: At the present time I am making up a group to go into
  |the underground city in Death Valley.
  `-----------------------------------------------------------------

                    THE BILL COOPER BRIEFING
          from the book "Revelations" by Jacques Vallee

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ALIEN THAT WAS CAPTURED? - Jacque Vallee

He  died  in 1952 after being ill for one  year.  The  government
tried  to  save him. They broadcast messages into  space,  asking
that  his  people  come  and help. The result  of  that  was  the
Holloman  landing, on April 25, 1964, when another Alien came  to
work  with  our scientists. He gave us lots of  information.  The
Aliens  were  desperate  to have their  presence  on  Earth  kept
secret. We agreed to that, in exchange for their technology.  The
Aliens  were  given permission to conduct abductions.  They  said
they needed to do them on medical grounds. They were supposed  to
give MJ-12 the list of the humans they abducted. Then we began to
realize they lied to us. - Bill Cooper

WHERE ARE THE ALIENS NOW?

At  Area-51.  Everybody  thinks it is under control  of  the  Air
Force,  because it's at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.  But  in
reality  Area-51  is  under the Navy. The  Navy  has  operational
control  of field activities on this project. That also  includes
Area-2, which was originally built as an underground storage area
for the Atomic Energy Commission. - Cooper

WHAT ABOUT GROOM LAKE?

Groom Lake is at Nellis, same thing. There is an Alien  Technical
Group at Nellis, and there is another one near Dulce, New Mexico,
on an Indian reservation. - Cooper

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT'S TRUE?

That's  what the documents stated. It turns out there is a  large
magnetic  anomaly where the base is.  Perhaps  ground-penetrating
radar  would show what's inside, allegedly it is all  honeycombed
with  tunnels.  The document explains how to get  in,  where  the
doors are. - Cooper

IS IT GUARDED?

No,  it's  not guarded. That would only attract  attention,  they
would  have to explain what it is. But once you go in, you  never
come out. I can take you there if you want. - Cooper

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Mulroney has the gift of GRAB!

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!tdonnell
From: [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly)
Subject: Bette Davis  toddler?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 03:18:04 GMT
Lines: 9

Where did you find this information about the Bette Davis look alike toddler?
It sounds like it is right from the pages of the Enquirer!

The idea, and subject, of a past life introducing itself in a new one is very
interesting.  However, I find it difficult to accept or interpret this story
the way it is presented.  It sounds like propaganda.

Matthew Marsh

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!tdonnell
From: [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly)
Subject: Re: UFO March on Washington
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 03:44:00 GMT
Lines: 23


Regarding the UFO march to demand disclosure of information...

I would really like to believe that a march, a demand, or anything short of
cracking the CIA/Government safes would make a difference.
I am very frustrated, and have to wonder whats going on, with all of the obviouscover ups.  However, I almost have to throw my hands up and give up on the
hopes of finding any REAL truth from the government.

If they do "release" anything, it is only going to be another piece of
conspiracy.  Two good examples would be the JFK and Vietnam/POW issues.
The government realizes one day that even the "dumb" citizens are beginning
to see through poorly planned cover ups so they announce an "uncovering"
of hidden information, which we all draw to like flies, crying "Finally!".
We only end up further bluffed.  They just did this with this big exploration
in Vietnam saying that they have confirmed that all POWs are definitely dead
and gone.  They even want to award Vietnam for their assistance!

I know this is not a very constructive attitude.  But it does say one thing:
we really need to explore completely different routes to find the truth.

Matthew Marsh


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12984 alt.alien.visitors:11446 alt.religion.kibology:4918
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!tdonnell
From: [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 03:49:33 GMT
Lines: 11


Anyone want to throw in some insight into the swimming sea monsters such
as Lockness, Lake Champlain, etcetera?

I believe we are dealing with the same species through out some large lakes.
A number of questions come to mind though:  Did others in the other lakes
eventually die off?  Are they truly prehistoric?  How do they elude such
extensive, modern day searching/monitoring?

Matthew Marsh

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ParaNet Directory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 01:38:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 215

Below is the current ParaNet Directory of Affiliates.

=================================================================
            LIST OF PARANET INTERNATIONAL AFFILIATES
=================================================================

ParaNet Information Services
Headquarters
Michael Corbin, Director
P.O. Box 172
Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:9/0
Internet Address:  [e-mail]
For  any information about ParaNet, direct your inquiries to  one
of the addresses listed above, or phone voice at [phone].
Affiliate  applications  can be file requested via  1:104/422  by
requesting APPLICATION.
=================================================================
LIST OF PARANET ADMINISTRATIVE CONTACTS
---------------------------------------
Don Ecker - Director, Network Security
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:1012/3
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

Clark Matthews - Network Development/Coordinator
FidoNet Address:  1:107/816
ParaNet Address:  9:1012/4
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

Cyro Lord - ParaNet/Internet/Gateway Administrator
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

James Roger Black - ParaNet/Internet Network Development
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

Deryl Jon Bair - Director, Public Relations
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:1012/30
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

Matthew McKenna - ParaNet Financial Operations
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:1012/29
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

John Burke - Director, ParaNet Legal Affairs
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:1012/9
Internet Address:  [e-mail]

Vladimir Godic - Australian Bureau Chief/UFORA Representative
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:1040/7
Internet Address:  [e-mail]
=================================================================
                           AFFILIATES

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA               DENVER, CO               MICHAEL CORBIN
9:9/0               Headquarters Node        303-431-8797  2400
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-BETA          LINCOLN, NB              BOB DUNN
9:1012/31           Fortean Research Center  402-488-2587  2400
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-CENTAURI      SAN FRANCISCO, CA        RICK MOEN
9:1012/2            Bay Area Skeptics Board  415-572-0359  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-GAMMA         BLOOMINGTON, IN          JIM GRAHAM
9:1012/13           Portal Dolmen BBS        812-334-0418  2400
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-DELTA         LOS ANGELES, CA          DON ECKER
9:1012/3            Network Security         **Private System**
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ALPHA-EPSILON       ALEXANDRIA, VA           STEVE ROSE
9:1011/2            The ABySS BBS            703-823-6591  9600
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ALPHA-ZETA          MINNEAPOLIS, MN          DON SUDDUTH
9:1012/26           Sirius Rising BBS        612-780-5916  2400
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-MU            HAMLIN, NY               NEIL PALUMBO
9:1012/27           The Rat's Edge           716-964-7968  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-THETA         PALM SPRINGS, CA         JEFF & DANNI BREWI
9:1012/33           Gray's Anatomy           619-778-1866  2400
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-ETA           KINGSLAND, TX            RICHARD SALTS
9:1012/28           Highland Lakes BBS       915-388-3209  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-IOTA          HOT SPRINGS VILLAGE, AR  JIM BAUGUSS
9:1012/32                                    501-922-3276  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-KAPPA         EL CAJON, CA             DON ORCHARD
9:1012/6                                     619-530-0613  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-LAMBDA        BAINBRIDGE, WA           MICHAEL SCHUYLER
9:1012/23           Quicksilver BBS          206-780-2011  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ALPHA-NU            GILBERT, AZ              FRANK WARD
9:1012/8            The Encounter            602-892-1853  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
DELTA-ALPHA         FOLSOM, PA               CHRIS LIGHTNER
9:1010/21           The Lighthouse           215-543-8734  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
KAPPA               AUBURNDALE, WI           JOHN HRUSOVSZKY
9:1010/13           The Twilight Zone        715-652-2758  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NU-ALPHA            CAPE CORAL, FL           BOB SABO
9:1012/14                                    813-549-1761  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NU-DELTA            ORLANDO, FL              JOHN HICKS
9:1011/12           Gourmet Delight          407-649-4136  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
XI-ALPHA            MILWAUKEE, WI            PETE PORRO
9:1011/40           Radio Free Milwaukee     414-352-6176  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
OMICRON             BUSHKILL, PA             PAUL FAEDER
9:1010/70           Pocono Mountain BBS      717-588-7549  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
PI                  JERSEY CITY, NJ          CLARK MATTHEWS
9:1012/4            The Wrong Number BBS     201-451-3063  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
TAU-CETI            CHICAGO, IL              JOHN BURKE
9:1012/9                                     **Private System**
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ZETA-RETICULI       SCOTTSDALE, AZ           STEVE GRESSER
9:1010/100          Remotron HQ              602-661-1881  9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
EPSILON             DENVER, CO               MIKE KEITHLY
9:1012/16           MICAP/ParaNet Affiliate  303-933-7179  2400
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------
AUSTRALIA
---------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
UFORA          CAIRNS, QUEENSLAND            VLADIMIR GODIC
DIRECTOR
9:1040/7                                     **Private System**
-----------------------------------------------------------------
UFORA          CAIRNS, QUEENSLAND            PONY GODIC
SECRETARY
9:1040/6                                     **Private System**
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UFORA          PENNANT HILLS, NSW            BILL CHALKER
ASSOCIATE NSW
9:1040/8                                     **Private System**
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UFORA          WYNNVALE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA     KEITH BASTERFIELD
RESEARCH OFFICER
9:1040/12                                    **Private System**
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UFORA          PROSPECT, SOUTH AUSTRALIA     GRANT GODIC
ASSOCIATE PROSPECT
9:1040/13                                    **Private System**
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UFORA          WOOMERA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA      ROGER KOCH
ASSOCIATE WOOMERA
9:1040/14                                    **Private System**
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UFORA          PRAHRAN, VICTORIA             KEITH SONERSON
ASSOCIATE VICTORIA
9:1040/15                                    **Private System**
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UFORA          HEPBURN SPRINGS, VICTORIA     ROSS SKINNER
ASSOCIATE VICTORIA
9:1040/16                                    **Private System**
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UFORA          MONTROSE, TASMANIA            PAUL JACKSON
UFORA/TUFOIC ASSOCIATE
9:1040/17                                    **Private System**
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UFORA          NORTH ADELAIDE, SA            PETER JONES
ASSOCIATE ADELAIDE
9:1040/18                                    **Private System**
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-------
GERMANY
-------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SIGMA-BETA     SEEHEIM, FRG                  HENDRIK BOHM
9:1021/1                                     49-6257-7966   9600
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SIGMA-ALPHA    BERLIN STEGLITZ, FRG          ANDRE EICHNER
9:1021/2                                     49-30-7919269  9600
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SIGMA-GAMMA    MOENCHENGLADBACH              HILMUT BUESCHGES
9:1021/3                                     49-2161-53668  2400
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SIGMA-DELTA    FRANKFURT, FRG                DIETER HUMMEL
9:1021/4                                     49-6190-7366   9600
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SIGMA-ETA      KARLSRUHE, FRG                MIRKO KETTERER
9:1021/7                                     49-721-370267  9600
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------
EUROPE
------
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SIGMA-EPSILON  BASILDON ESSEX, UK            STEVE DIXON
9:1021/5                                     44-268-543889  9600
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SIGMA-ZETA     ZUERICH, CH                   GEORGE RAGAZ
9:1021/6                                     41-81-362584  9600
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--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who believes?
Date: 29 Nov 1992 13:17:54 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

[e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:

>Just a question:  Who really believes that we are being visited by aliens?
>I would like to gather more facts on the subject as well as weird information
>about the ancient world and such.

>Here's one to start it off:

>The Great Pyramid lies exactly on top of the center of gravity of the Earth's
>continents.  Not only that, but also if you multiply the height of the Great
>Pyramid by 10^9, you get the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun.  As
>a side note, the Area divided by twice the Height equals to PI.

Wow!  That all *is* pretty amazing.  (heh heh)

keith

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Re: Who believes?
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 16:41:17 GMT
Lines: 25

Kumaran Santhanam ([e-mail]) wrote:
: Just a question:  Who really believes that we are being visited by aliens?
: I would like to gather more facts on the subject as well as weird information
: about the ancient world and such.
:
: Here's one to start it off:
:
: The Great Pyramid lies exactly on top of the center of gravity of the Earth's
: continents.  Not only that, but also if you multiply the height of the Great
: Pyramid by 10^9, you get the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun.  As
: a side note, the Area divided by twice the Height equals to PI.
:
How about this one:
How was the Iron Pillar in Delhi made?  The thing never rusts, contains no
phosphors or sulpher.  They say it can't be accurately dated, but is in the
area of 1000+ years old.  The question:  How can any 'primitive' society
sculpt an iron pillar that WILL NOT RUST (something I imagine would be very
difficult to do today)??


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
[e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
________________________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who believes?
Date: 29 Nov 1992 17:21:27 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

[e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:

>How was the Iron Pillar in Delhi made?  The thing never rusts, contains no
>phosphors or sulpher.  They say it can't be accurately dated, but is in the
>area of 1000+ years old.  The question:  How can any 'primitive' society
>sculpt an iron pillar that WILL NOT RUST (something I imagine would be very
>difficult to do today)??

Iron rusts.  If the pillar doesn't rust, then it isn't iron (or else it is
painted of coated with something).  We can make alloys today (such as
stainless steel) that don't rust, but they aren't iron.

keith

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 17:55:51 GMT
Lines: 19

   I personally enjoy the input of John Winston to this group
and his ideas don't seem strange at all.  I've read many
of the things he discusses in books you can find in
used book stores or from UFO contact notes.  I'm glad that
he is spreading this information.  It is still the choice
of the reader of what or what not to believe.  I'm not
afraid to hear any idea or theory no matter the source.


--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 18:03:21 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:
>   I personally enjoy the input of John Winston to this group
>and his ideas don't seem strange at all.  I've read many
>of the things he discusses in books you can find in
>used book stores or from UFO contact notes.  I'm glad that
>he is spreading this information.  It is still the choice
>of the reader of what or what not to believe.  I'm not
>afraid to hear any idea or theory no matter the source.

There is always the matter of inappropriate newsgroups. Many topics
John responds to are cross-posted to sci.skeptic, alt.origins, and
many other newsgroups where they do not belong.

Posting from Portal, John cannot change the newsgroups line, but it
would seem beyond his knowledge even then.

>============================================================
>    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
>============================================================


Rich

[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO March on Washington
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 18:56:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 15


    [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly) writes:
    ...I know this is not a very constructive attitude.

I'll say.  You might want to let the folks at CAUS know about this
too, so they can stop wasting their time...

    But it does say one thing: we really need to explore
    completely different routes to find the truth.

... do you have something in mind?  How exactly are you going to find
out about a cover up without interacting with the group doing your
coverup?

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks)
Subject: Re: Who believes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 20:00:54 GMT
Lines: 30

Kumaran Santhanam writes:
>Just a question:  Who really believes that we are being visited by aliens?

Not me.

>The Great Pyramid lies exactly on top of the center of gravity of the Earth's
>continents.

Isn't the center of gravity of the continents in the earth's interior?  Unless
you're talking about from a flat map.  But then what projection scheme is
used?  The earth is round you know.......

>Not only that, but also if you multiply the height of the Great
>Pyramid by 10^9, you get the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun.

To what accuracy?  I could pick any object in my living room and multiply by
some factor like 10^10 or 10^11 and do a pretty good job of getting the mean
distance between the earth and the sun.

>As a side note, the Area divided by twice the Height equals to PI.

If the Egyptians used large rolling disks to measure distances for the sides
of the pyramids, then PI automatically enters into any calculations.....

Rob U
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12985 alt.alien.visitors:11455 sci.skeptic:34990
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 19:55:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 46

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>> Look, the whole Hollow Earth theory is completely ludicrous.  If
>> indeed the Earth is hollow, then how do you explain its gravitational
>> activity, calculated to several dozen decimal places with several
>> dozen objects?  We can measure the force of gravity and from that
>> we can get the mass of the Earth.  If the Earth is hollow, then
>> the force of gravity would be less...but it isn't, so it ain't.
>> Hate to be the shriveled carrot under your peach cobbler, but the
>> world ain't hollow and there ain't nobody inside.
>>>
>
>No one said the Earth is hollow.  That would be a ludicrous thing to suggest
>because we know it to be untrue.  What I was really suggesting was that there
>is a possibility that there are undiscovered species on this planet, maybe even
>ancestors to Homo Sapiens that have evolved differently through enviromental
>change.  There's no reason at all why there couldn't be a thousand species of
>animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's surface.
>
>
>
>    The pyramids were built by aliens aided by the Egyptians, using sound to
>construct them.
>    The Nazca lines  were ORIGINALLY runways for UFOs.  After alien activity
>and research in the area stopped the Nazca indians added to the lines creating
>pictures in the plains.  They even learned how to fly from the aliens allowing
>them to see their work.

1. We do not know for sure that there is no underground "differently-\
   evolved" (how's THAT for political correctness?), that is true.
   Please reference the other follow-ups from people who pointed out,
   correctly, that if you make this claim, you must have proof.

2. I'm sorry.  If you feel that THEY will get you if you post about the
   pyramids or the Nazca lines, and therefore remain silent, then I have
   no choice but to brand you a psychotic and return to believing the
   logical and extensively researched anthropological standpoint, which
   is that people build the Pyramids and the Nazca lines, and that they
   did it themselves, with nothing but ingenuity, slaves, and theological
   clarity.  Did I mention hard work?  OK, hard work too.  What you say
   may or may not be true, but unless you can prove it, I have no choice
   but to assume it is untrue.

    Jason
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12986 alt.alien.visitors:11456 sci.skeptic:34991
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 19:33:05 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter) writes:
>>[e-mail] writes:
>>>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little
>doubt
>>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!
>
>THERE IS NO DOUBT.
>
>
>>>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Pl
>ains, are evidence of the
>>>existence of extraterrestrial life.

OK, now we know that you don't doubt it, and that you are CONVINCED in
capital letters.  That means you either have very good evidence or you're
closed-minded...

>    I will not disclose my full knowledge on the net.
>    Why don't you e-mail me and I might fill you in.

Don't fill him in!  He's from the CIA, I know him! :-)
(Is there another possible reason for not posting it, beside paranoia?)

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
"Every three months I tell all of the new recruits that they are supposed to
stand here and not there to get their uniforms, but they just don't learn!"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12987 alt.alien.visitors:11457 sci.skeptic:34992
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 19:38:39 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
>>The pyramids were not built by slaves, but by paid workers. The construction
>>is well documented and understood. No aliens are mentioned.
>
>Of course aliens aren't mentined in any documentation.  Just the same as alien
>intervention in WW2 and Vietnam has never been widely documented.

I guess almost everybody will agree with you that the reason for not
mentioning them is the same in all of these cases...

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
...and then the dragon ate the princess and the knight, and he lived happily
ever after.   -- Grandma Addams telling Wednesday a story (paraphrased)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Who believes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 20:21:17 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>[e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
>
>>How was the Iron Pillar in Delhi made?  The thing never rusts, contains no
>>phosphors or sulpher.  They say it can't be accurately dated, but is in the
>>area of 1000+ years old.  The question:  How can any 'primitive' society
>>sculpt an iron pillar that WILL NOT RUST (something I imagine would be very
>>difficult to do today)??
>
>Iron rusts.  If the pillar doesn't rust, then it isn't iron (or else it is
>painted of coated with something).  We can make alloys today (such as
>stainless steel) that don't rust, but they aren't iron.

Also there is the minor point that the pillar is in the middle (figuratively
speaking), and iron has little tendancy to rust in the absense of water.
Desert artifacts exported to foreign cities often weather more in 20 years
than they did in several thousand years of desert exposure.

>keith


Rich

[e-mail]




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12988 alt.alien.visitors:11459 sci.skeptic:34993
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 07:52:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 58

Subject: Do You Ever Wonder If You Are A Wanderer?
  Do you ever feel like this earth is not your home? Are you looking for
something different. Well friend your not crazy. There could be a reason for
that. So listen up and maybe we can find out the reason for your condition.
  First of all let me state your not crazy, the world is crazy. If you think
what we consider to be normal normal in this world is normal then in my
oppinion you should see a psychiatrist and as you know anyone who goes and
sees a psychiatrist should have his or her head examined.
  We now will talk about two groups of undercover (so to speak) Space Brothers
known as Star People and Wanderers. Both of these groups are
extra-terrestrial beings, who have entered our incarnational cycle, to
assist with the transformation into the Aquarian Age.  The Space People and
Wanderers are not native to our planet Earth, neither is any soul which is
associated with the Earth at this time, or in times past.  Each of us is on
our own path, which we have chosen, it is just some of us are rebelling
against who we are and we're not making progress.
  The idea of Star People was introduced by a book with the same title by Brad
and Francie Steiger, in mid 1970's.  Now that book is part of a five book
series, Called the Star People Series.  The other books are: "Revelation:
The Divine Fire"; Gods of Aquarius"; "Reflectiions from an Angel's Eye" and
"The Seed".  The information on Star People, basically came through Mr.
Steiger's search for paranormal phenomenon, since he is a author of over 200
books.  He discovered, by working with individuals through regressional
hypnosis, that certain people volunteered to come to the Earth, to
spiritually uplift the planet, and had another world/dimension in  the
universe they called home.  He discovered that the Star People were
basically two kinds,  Star Helpers, or eathlings who assisted the Star Seed
in their work and Star Seed, which would be the extra-terrestrial souls
volunteering  to work here, to help create the Golden Age.
  In order for the Star Person to operate effectively on earth, they had to be
disguised as a normal type of earthling, thus they had a regular bitth, just
like anyone else. When they incarnated into the Earth, they had to obey the
rules and regualtions of the earth, which included having a memory veil
placed over their conciousness, where they totally forget their Star
Heritage, so they can function as Earth people.  Much of the work to help
tranform our earth, requires helpers in the material levels, to be examples
of the Light and Truth, so many volunteered. Mr. Steiger discovered in his
analysis that many Star Seed had certain physical weaknesses or spiritual
experiences.  The physical ailments are due to the fact that the vibratory
rate on their home worlds is much greater than the earth, thus the spirit of
the Star Seed can not exactly fit in the gross level of earth bodies.
In the Star People book, there is  a very comprehensive list of
physical/personality attributes. A few of these conditions include:
Compelling eyes; lower than normal body temperature; an unexpected child
(i.e,-Star Seed who wanted to get down here  in a hurry); chronic sinusitis;
hypersensitivity to electricity or electro-maagnetic forcefields; experinece
a buzzing or audio tone in the ears prior to a  psychic-spiritual event or
warning of  danger; have flying dreams; children and animals attracted to
you; felt earth mother /father  not real parents, had unseen companions as
child, etc... The Star Seed usually learn of their identity through a series
of spiritual experiences, or synchronicity, which activates their memory.
But as Dr. Puharich mentioned at the Star People Festival, a very many Star
Seed become depressed because they miss their homes and find the Earth life
so difficult.  However, this helps in another way for them to understand the
conditions of their brothers and sisters here on Earth.
  So this is me (JW) talking. Are you or aren't you? It takes one to know one.
End Part 1.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12989 alt.alien.visitors:11460 alt.religion.kibology:4924
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Good
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 09:00:56 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 69

Subject: The Man From Merry Ole England.
  We have been fooling around talking about Monsters and other things. I
thought it was about time I to throw you people a bone with some meat on it
and see how you do. At the present time there is a person from England who
has come over here to the USA and is really showing us how to investigate
UFOs. He seems to have the ability to cut through the unimportant
information, the politics, religion and get down to the real truth. This
illustrious man's name is Timothy Good and he is a researcher from London.
He has been investigating the field of UFOs for 30 years.  He has traveled
the world as symphony musician and been privilileged to do resarch and
interviews in all corners of the globe. He believes the documents, photos
and medical evidence he has seen are so revealing and important that they
had to be released to the public.  To do so he has authored a book, Above
Top Secret, one of the most thorough works of its kind ever attempted ( I
haven't read it yet JW.) Good also serves as  a magazine consultant.
  Tim's book looks at animal mutilations and has let him to many parts of the
world.  He has researched the Russian public investigators, events which
they deny ever occurred  and counts the number  UFO students in China at
over 20,000.
  Timothy Good names names and tells his truth of  the UFO-ET picture; human
ET/animal experiments, NASA contacts, fakes, a startling theory about George
Adamski, norids, the Bible and the world-wide cover up are only part of his
findings.
 Timothy Good's extensive researtch exposes manyu little known details of the
UFO Story around the world.
  Now we go to the latest information about Tim in the news media. World
leaders are meeting in secret with aliens from outer space but are afraid to
tell us, says a leading expert on extraterrestrials (our man Tim).
 In fact, goverment officials from the United States, Great Britain, Russia
and Australia have entered into an alliance with the aliens.
  I know from my research that former Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorgbachev
discussed the subject with President Reagan at a summit in 1985.
  The news of alien contact has been withheld by leaders because they fear it
might be too difficult to take.
  It could cause mayhem, particularly as we have reason to believe that some
of our great religious leaders are extraterrestrial in origin.
  They hoope to soften us for the shockiong news with leaked information and
disinformation.
  It appears from descriptions that there is more than one group of aliens-and
that some are better disposed towards us than others.
  There are several different kinds of aliens who visit earth.
  Some are prgbably tourist, but there are others who  have a vested interest
in what is going on down here.
  The aliens are genetically linked with us (that is we may have a common
ancestor), and they want to study our development.
  The aliens are far from infalible or superhuman. Their spaceships have
crashed and their crews have been killed and captured. Contact with aliens
was made as early a 1947, when a UFO crashed near Magdalena, New Mexico.  As
a result of the crash, the U.S. came into pocession of two frozen alien
bodies, another alien seriously injured and a fourth in good health.
  U.S. Army Sergeant Melvin E. Brown, asigned to guard a hangar at Magdalena,
discovered the two frozen alien bodies aboard a refrigerated truck.
  They were like humans, but they were not human.
  The heads were round, the eyes small and they had no hair.,Their eyes were
oddly shaped, and they were quite small, with their heads large in
proportion to their bodies than ours.
  Another witness backed up Brown's story, and said he'd seen two dead aliens,
another badly injured and one who was unhurt at Magdalena.
  A third witness, a young boy, who was walking with his family at the time,
reported seeing the saucer embedded in the side of a hill and three bodies
about 5 feet tall nearby.
  A fourth creature sitting nearby recoiled in fear like we were going to
attack it.
  All were cautioned by the military to forget what they'd seen.
  So there you have it. Would a person from England lie?
Source of information: International UFO Library Magazine, Vol. 1, No. 3. July
1192. Page 67.
Sun - December1, 1992. Page 25 dn 26.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange facts
Date: 29 Nov 1992 20:56:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Here's another interesting fact:

In the late 1800s a map was found in the possession of a Turkish admiral.  This
looked in a way like a map of the world, but was extremely distorted.  Because
of this supposed inaccuracy, the map was given to a museum and left on display.
This map was really a copy of a copy of a copy...etc.  The real age of the first
one is unknown.  However, experts have determined that the youngest it could be
is late 1700s.  Keep in mind that this is the absolute YOUNGEST and the original
is thought to be many hundreds if not thousands of years old.  Anyway, to get to
the point...Nothing was really thought of this map until the late 1950s and
early 1960s when satelite photography was invented.  Many satelite photographs
had been taken of the Earth during this time.  Someone had the bright idea to
compare this Turkish admiral's map with various satelite photographs.  It turns
out that the admiral's map matches EXACTLY a satelite photograph taken directly
over Cairo, Egypt.  This is not all, however.  The admiral's map also happens to
show the mountain ranges of Antarctica.  These mountains can't be seen directly
since they are buried under ice and snow.  We only knew of their existence when
sonar was developed.  The person or persons who created this first map had to
have done it from a great height (that of a satelite) and also had to have had
advance imaging apparatus capable of scanning under the ice of Antarctica.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 20:39:33 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>I feel that Vallee is one of the most accurate thinkers studying this field. He is a scientist and has solid credentials.  He does not get bogged down in the half-baked pseudo-religious/scientific cult-like thinking so prevalent in the field.  He deals with actual case studies and hard data, drawing some theories from that.
>
>Mike
>

Athough I do respect Mike and the work he does, even if he doesn't alway
return my email;-)...

I must disagree with his opinion here, and I am quite vocal about it.

Vallee to me, is not to be trusted. I feel it is highly likely that he
is an intelligence operative, and that is why his "research" conclusions
can be highly contradictory and confusing. When I read his books, I get
the impression of a highly logical person that understands compters, with
an axe to grind (to persuade and confuse us), who is very narrow minded in
his views of the makeup of reality and the possiblilies that "reality" would
encompass.

I don't trust his opinions for a nanosecond.

If you want a believable author, read Goode, Lindemann, Stevens, or Howe.
These people impress me as much more open, human, and unconstrained by
a "logic" that is entirely anthropromorphic in nature.

And, if Cooper is correct, and Project Grudge Report #13 was written by Hynek,
then Vallee's early carrer ties with Hynek place his credibilty as highly
suspect.


Jeff-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 21:13:13 GMT
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
>Here's another interesting fact:
>
>In the late 1800s a map was found in the possession of a Turkish admiral.  This
>looked in a way like a map of the world, but was extremely distorted.  Because
>of this supposed inaccuracy, the map was given to a museum and left on display.
>This map was really a copy of a copy of a copy...etc.  The real age of the first
>one is unknown.  However, experts have determined that the youngest it could be
>is late 1700s.  Keep in mind that this is the absolute YOUNGEST and the original
>is thought to be many hundreds if not thousands of years old.  Anyway, to get to
>the point...Nothing was really thought of this map until the late 1950s and
>early 1960s when satelite photography was invented.  Many satelite photographs
>had been taken of the Earth during this time.  Someone had the bright idea to
>compare this Turkish admiral's map with various satelite photographs.  It turns
>out that the admiral's map matches EXACTLY a satelite photograph taken directly
>over Cairo, Egypt.  This is not all, however.  The admiral's map also happens to
>show the mountain ranges of Antarctica.  These mountains can't be seen directly
>since they are buried under ice and snow.  We only knew of their existence when
>sonar was developed.  The person or persons who created this first map had to
>have done it from a great height (that of a satelite) and also had to have had
>advance imaging apparatus capable of scanning under the ice of Antarctica.
>
>*****************************************************************************
>* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
>*****************************************************************************
>* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
>*****************************************************************************


What source did you get this from? And who compared the satellite
photos?

john

--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 23:01:43 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: DistNet Technical Support
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> change.  There's no reason at all why there couldn't be a thousand species of
> animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's surface.

Well, actually there is one reason. It's called *lava* or *magma*. You
know, the stuff that comes out of volcanoes?

=Doug
---

uuisis!testsys!doug
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From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Date: 29 Nov 1992 22:34:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

I got that tidbit from "Chariots of the Gods" by Erik Von Daniken.  I don't
know the exact specifics behind it but that is the jist of it.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 22:41:05 GMT
Lines: 15

Ah, then you don't really know how valid that information is.

The problem with a lot of this is that even if all what the people
say about the aliens is true, the theories are conviently designed
that none of them can be proved or disproved. So, there is no
reason why someone should believe you over some other theory.
Which then brings the beliefs into the realm of religion not science.
And in that realm anything goes.

john
--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
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From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Date: 29 Nov 1992 22:45:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

You are right.  These tidbits are not perfectly founded on indisputable facts
and there is a shadow of doubt.  I wish I had more concrete evidence to help
substantiate these claims.  Hopefully, some day, the evidence will come.  In
the meantime, though, I think it's interesting to merely ponder these strange
and unusual things.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 22:54:33 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
>You are right.  These tidbits are not perfectly founded on indisputable facts
>and there is a shadow of doubt.  I wish I had more concrete evidence to help
>substantiate these claims.  Hopefully, some day, the evidence will come.  In
>the meantime, though, I think it's interesting to merely ponder these strange
>and unusual things.
>

I was never saying they had to be perfectly founded on indisputable
facts. Such a thing does not exist.

True it may be interesting to read about different theories and
fantasize about what could have happened. And, it may even be possible
that some of them is true. But, so far none have made any strides
above the level of religion. And, as a religion if you have faith in
it, then fine. But that does not mean anyone else has to believe you.

john
--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
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From: [e-mail] (Montykins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Big Bird
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 92 22:52:16 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: That should have been insulted.

Don't worry, it will be.

 -Paul "Monty" Ashley
   (You know what's fun? You take a Casio Keyboard and set it to
percussion. Then you watch Comedy Central and make your own rim
shots! Oh boy! Do I need a life or _What_?)
--
All just the opinions of [e-mail].
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From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Date: 29 Nov 1992 23:03:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 11
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Don't worry....I'm not asking anybody else to believe it....I'm not sure I
really believe it either.  However, I think it's interesting to just bring
these kinds of things up and gather more unusual information.  I'm not much
of a believer in faith questions (I'm also atheist).  These kinds of facts
just intrigue me.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Pictures of Alien (Roswell)
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 02:28:33 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 40

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Author) writes:

>Hi, everyone. I was reading UFO Crash Secrets at Wright/Patterson Air
>Force base, by James W. Moseley. On the backcover of this book a picture
>apperently of one of the aliens recovered from the crash site. This
>picture seems to originate from the late Prof Zigel. At the end of page
>82 of that book it is said that recently a third photo of a far superior
>quality is circulating among American UFOlogists.

>Does anyone have more information on that picture and possibly even has
>seen it. Please let me know.

>Greetings Peter

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>[e-mail] (5W)
>Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
>Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
>Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround


Hi,
on 130.231.240.17   in pub/ufo_and_space_pics   there is a picture
called alien_47.jpg !

This is only a well made doll, but a few UFO freaks stated it was real
!!

This is the picture that is circulated !

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Ingenierbuero Gatz & Hartmann.
email to:  [e-mail]

--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
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